2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks) (Read 216 times)

Cheers everyone. I am still pretty happy about the race result, even if I did spend a good amount of time last week looking for redemption possibilities after fully accepting that it was a mistake in pacing from miles 16-20 that messed me up. I appreciate the thoughts about fueling. I did say I wondered about it, but I never really thought it was what caused me to miss my target. I was on track to go between 3:27 and 3:29 until mile 20, which had been my modified goal after seeing the weather for the day. Going to remember to stick to the plan next time. 

I took it easy last week, and by 7 days post-race, my legs felt about what they always do on a Sunday after a long run. My heart-rate stats have been unusually high/low for me, which made me extra vigilant about rest and not pushing it too much—It helped that I also didn’t have a lot of time, and I wonder if losing the semester stress helps the heart stats settle down somewhat, too. I celebrated submitting grades this morning with a mid-long, hot run (Kiwi Point 160 by the end of it). Having only online courses this Summer Term means that I have a lot more flexibility, but I need to create a good structure for myself.  

Dave, congrats on your marathon! It’s great you didn’t let the 3:20s get you in the end, and 2nd fastest (non-downhill) marathon is still a great performance. I’m glad the hip or back pain didn’t interfere with your running, but I imagine they messed with your head before and were not very pleasant after. 

I hardly think I qualify as an early-career marathoner anymore. I ran my first marathon in 2011 and have run 14 of them (even if they were not all PR attempts). I will also say that I trained for and ran my first marathon without any special fueling knowledge, ran my second fueled by Christmas cookies, and it wasn’t until my third that I discovered gels. I also believe proper nutrition while training and before the race are important. And for this last training cycle, I went back to doing all morning runs fasted except for a cup of coffee or two. 

I’m tempted to say that I’m not talented in the marathon, but I also believe it’s just a matter of time. I learn something from each race, and I think I’m getting better at them, not just from the perspective of times. While I’m proud to have two sub-3:30s in a row now (if you recall, when I came on the forum, that was my white whale), my other race times indicate I should be able to run at least 3:25, so I’ll just keep signing up for races that are bound to have better weather and trying to complete good training cycles until I get that. But running is not all business and no play. I really enjoy running 5Ks with my club and I seem to have some talent at ultra races (especially the flat, hot ones), so I want to keep signing up for those as well. 

My plans for the fall are a reflection of those considerations since I really want to get the Boston monkey off my back (yeah I BQd, but unless there's no cut-off time, I'm not running in 2025). I have a few destination marathons in mind (a bit of a challenge, since my travel budget is already being used for a conference in the fall), but there’s also a 12-hour track race that’s right around the corner from me at the end of November… time and place are good! But it’s not a marathon, so I’m still thinking. Maybe Marine Corps? We'll see.  

darkwave, your race plan change to run the BAA 10K, and knowing that you have the certification to compete in para-categories nationally, and could get it internationally, indicates how you’ve opened a door of very cool possibilities that your diagnosis threatened to close. I’m really excited to see where you go next. (Your one PT sounds like a terrific person to have on your team!) Also, glad to see you’ve been feeling better! I feel like some sort of respiratory illness is obligatory after an endurance race (hoping to skip mine though, haha). Good news about the medication, too. 

Also, yeah, you’d think Boston organizers would have thought to have front and back bibs for folks… It seems like a good idea. 

Mark, that’s a terrific 5K. Great report! The stream-of-consciousness in a 5K is much easier to reproduce than for a marathon! (unless you’re RP) I prefer morning races because there’s not a lot of time to mess up the day, but the party vibe seems worth it. Congrats on being the national AG champ! And dang, that’s fast. 

BTW, I’m also happy to read that the cat survived the trip across the motorway!

Flavio, that’s a very interesting article. I made it about halfway before being pulled away for other things, but the main takeaway at that point, for me, was that the majority of his training is MP-pace-specific, which makes a lot of sense to me. I liked that aspect of Hanson’s plans and missed them when I used a coach. McMillan’s brought them back in for me, and I feel the long runs with a lot of miles at MP or faster were what helped me keep power for the majority of my last race. 

And I agree that recovery is integral to training and it includes time off, sleep, and proper nutrition (and supplements, if relevant. For example, I have to take iron otherwise I get anemic and can’t run). It’s mental too, I feel. We can’t be “on” all the time. Sometimes it’s nice after a race to just have a week or two (at least) of no plans, just getting back to where hard running is doable again. 

I also like how you think of your training. I noticed for the marathon that you waited to see your 10K get to a specific time to know you were ready to smash 3 hours. For the 800s, you’re looking for a particular 200m time. I guess I’m just amazed that you can translate your distances like that, because it’s not how it works for me (or maybe I’m just not doing it right). 

Krash, terrific report. You didn’t seem very happy with the result, but it seems that you still had a better day than most everyone else out there! Congrats! Also, I have no idea what recovery from a 48-hour race is like, but could it be that that’s still affecting you? 

Also re: “most backyard ultras have some kind of vert” Yup. The 12-loop one I did a couple years ago was in ancient sand dunes. We only had about 150ft a lap, but it added up to something respectable by Florida standards by the end. I think I’d cry on a few of those hills if I had to deal with 400+ a loop, though. 

mmerkle and Dave, when I did mine, I spent the time between loops filling my clothes and hat up with ice, going to the bathroom, and using a massager to keep the muscles loose. It was a trick a non-newbie friend of mine shared with me, and it did help! That, plus fueling and some occasional wardrobe changes, helps pass the time and stops things from seizing up. 

wcrunner, where’s your 50K this weekend? I have learned now that Ohio can be hit or miss (if I paid better attention to the historical records, I would have seen it’s alternated with similar weather every year….) Hope it’s relatively cool for you!

Also, that video of the kid getting hit by a deer mid race… woah. I hope he ended up okay! They have quite a bit of force in them! I’ll admit, I pointed the deer out to the runners behind me, partly because it was cool, partly because I wanted them to be prepared if it decided to bound across the path at the exact moment they were running past. 

Steve, your training has been looking consistent and strong. Great news on that long run workout sans cramps! I’m sure you feel this way too, but June needs to be here already, because I can’t wait to see how you do. 

Cool base training and race plans, mmerkle. I like the idea of a rust-busting 5k. Our semesters are aligned, it seems. I also start teaching 2 6-week classes next week. Good luck! That format for your first class flying solo seems a bit like throwing you in the deep-end, but it will be fine. 

Keen, loved the report of your daughter’s race. The fact that she’s still at the age where playing is even an option next to running, and still ran a solid 2 miles, indicates that she’s clearly got your ultra genes :-) It’s always funny how a visual cue will make our brains quit earlier than our legs maybe would. 

Andy, congrats to your son! He’ll be great motivation soon to also keep getting faster :-) 

RP, just sign up for the 50-miler already. And good luck in your interview!!  

DW - Great news re: the meds.
You're most certainly right with your observation about single leg balance.
At this moment I'll stick to being near something LOL as that's enough of a challenge, but good to know.

 

 

Nutrition: so is it the consensus of this crew that the importance of proper fueling is overemphasized during a marathon and underemphasized during training?

I fully agree with that. Garbage in, garbage out, if you eat crap and drink tons of alcohol your training will suffer, period.

We're all free to decide on that though. I've seen plenty of people who will say they'd rather keep eating junk and filling with drinks cause they don't care for the 0.5% improvement in performance.

It's usually the under 30's, they think they will stay like that forever (I for sure did that when I was that age), over time they will learn their lesson 😈, unless they got freaky genetics 😁

Mikkey - I believe (though can't be sure) that Darkwave was referring to general diet, not what you eat during a training run.

Dave - I believe nutrition for general health is the same as nutrition for high performance, you're just adapting to the situation of spending more calories exercising.

Mark - Thanks for the race report. Based on my own past experience, I'd say you can run at least 10 seconds faster on a race with similar weather conditions but in the morning. When running in the dark you simply can't be as effective as can be.

RP - damn 2 pints of ice cream in one seating ? I'm in awe. My upper limit is 2 scoops at Amorino, and that's one of the best ice creams on Earth. Last year I tried to eat a pint of ice cream and felt sick afterwards LOL

LOL at you out there dispensing Jeep knowledge on your trails.

Dorothea - Those are ballpark numbers. That 10K PR indicated I was close to 1h22 half, and I believed to be possible to run sub 3 from a 1h22 half even for somebody like me.

Now with the 800s it's a bit different. I want to run sub 2h20 on the 800, that translates to 35 per 200. I know that when I ran my 1500 PR I could run the 200s in 32 or 33 seconds and I was in about 2'26'' 800 shape at the time, given that I ran 2'30 during a training session..

So I speculate that if I can get my 200s down to the 32 to 33 range my target would be within reach.

Flavio I have a sweet tooth. As I’m getting older I can’t seem to put down as much but I try.

dorothea I did.

mmerkle - Sounds like you're just lucky, I definitely had consequences for those things in my 20s.  So as someone blessed you're obligated to drink those beers

 

As an under 30 myself, it's more difficult to be disciplined when your body doesn't actively punish you as much. My stomach/gut doesn't act up easily. I don't gain weight easily. And it takes a decent amount of alcohol for me to feel anything resembling a hangover. I've actually had some really solid runs on Saturdays and Sundays after having 4 or 5 strong beers the night before. I don't advocate poor diet or consuming a lot of alcohol, but I think being more disciplined with age comes in part from actually FEELING the consequences lol.

Try one beer per mile before a long run. It makes life interesting. 
a 6 pack of Voodoo Ranger Imperial IPA can do WONDERS for the body of a man under 37.

 Good cooking is like running as it’s actually very simple to master if you have a passion for it. 👍

100% learning to cook is a vital skill. Once you learn how to make your favorite dishes you unlock your life LOL in my case it was when I learned how to make home made pasta (watching a video from Jamie Oliver heh), and also how to roast pork ribs.

MMerkle - Do note there's a huge difference in genetics between people so there probably is not a rule that can be used for all.

Medicine still has no clue about the role of genetics in our lives, simple stuff like some people could eat just globs of fat and be fine, while others must be really careful or else their arteries will get clogged pretty soon.

With that said, I guess if you observe your blood relatives you should be able to figure out a couple of patterns. In my case 100% of my relatives over the age of 50 take blood pressure medication (and even younger siblings). So naturally I can infer that I have a predisposition for that and should probably try to avoid stuff that triggers it, even if the actual root cause is not known (that really causes the higher blood pressure).

However, it takes a long time to be able to observe these effects on yourself. This is similar to a bloody nipple after a marathon.

If you run up to 30km long runs you will probably never have a blood nipple, and when people talk that you should apply vaseline to the nipples before the marathon you will probably think they're exaggerating. Hell you might be super hairy and not have the bloody nipple after all.

That's how I see it. You can abuse your liver for decades on end and be fine (some viking genes or whatever), or you could never drink a drop of alcohol and then get your liver messed up due to taking anti inflammatories for too long.

Same thing for smoking, eating fatty food, too many sweets, not sleeping well.

So yeah, it's like a game, you don't know the rules and you try to play as best you can.

Usually late 30's and early 40's is when the bill arrives and you start paying for your mistakes 

 

 Steve, why don't try to see the opposite of your boring idea : that when you train with the right progression DURING YEARS, the training plan is no more absurd and the recovery becomes normal. You are obsessed by the only idea you have in your mind : EPO for everything and for everybody, also for going in the toilet. Is not that you need a psycanalist ?

 

 

What does he mean Flavio, since you are also Italian you might be able to translate that for us 

LOL Canova is unintentionally hilarious, but yeah I love that he just posts their training there.

In case you weren't joking, he meant using EPO to make your bowels work well, and also that the dude should go to a psychologist..

Now would Steve please stop trolling Canova? 

Mick: I thought by now you would know enough Italian refugees to speak fluent cazzo (Warning: don't google this word if you don't know what it means)

 

Hopefully I'll have time to respond to other posts later today, but I'm getting anxious and focused on this.  I'm woefully undertrained for this and expect to walk much, maybe most, of it.  Historically the race either has heavy rain or scorching heat, so I don't trust the weather forecast that says the temperature will be near ideal with a high around 63F.  It's local for me, Sharon Hill, PA, a Philadelphia suburb. One bright spot is the possibility of winning a $25 gift certificate to my LRS if i can break the single age PA resident record of 8:41:10 for age 77.

GO for it, wcrunner. The weather looked a bit wet for today but perfect for tomorrow.

My mom (76) and I chatted a bit about endurance sports and how they get harder as you get older. Energy being a major factor, but also strength and bone density. Not everyone can cycle into old age due to balance issues, running is hard on the knees, swimming is overall good, but does nothing for the bones. I wondered out loud if I'd still be able to run when I was her age. She said she bet I would. Then I was like, but how long? And then I remembered you.

It doesn't matter if you have to walk a lot, but get that record!

We can control our food, sleep, and exercise (to a point... there are sometimes factors that add limiters to that control), but yeah, we can't control our genes. Even if we know our biological parents and their parents (and so on), we don't know all the aspects of our DNA, so we do the best we can, I guess.