Forums >Racing>2024 Advanced Training and Racing Thread (still competitive jerks)
Are we there, yet?
Did you ever wonder what you could have done with optimized fueling? Everyone os different I get that but why does Eliot Kipchoge and the rest of the elite take in up to16 gels? That and the carbon plated shoes have on all levels made people faster and its not even debatable mind you I took 5 gels and still only managed 3:53 so my conviction comes from podcasts only (disclaimer)
No, I've never wondered about what effect fueling would have had. I also can't remember seeing any elite taking gels, lots of specially prepared drinks, but no gels. My issue was usually pacing, and I could have possibly run faster with more mileage. I maxed out at 70 mpw one year, but 50-60 mpw was more normal. Calculators say I could have run 2:45-2:50 based on half marathon times vs my PB of 2:54, 2:40-2:45 based on 5K times. I have often wondered what I could have run if I'd put together a well paced race under optimum conditions. My best executed raced were all under adverse conditions like running into a 20 mph headwind the last half or temperatures in the 70s or higher.
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K, 9:11:09 06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
I am going to jump down a fueling rabbit hole here real quick... feel free to read or ignore at your leisure... this is my experience-based opinion, and nothing more...
Ingesting carbs during a marathon is more like the icing on the cake instead of a main ingredient. Why? Because without having maximized all of the other physiological adaptations, the added carbs will at best maybe gain you a little extra time, and at worst cause abdominal distress... Why is that?
Quick dive... there are BIG physiological limiters that need to be improved before worrying a whole lot about fueling during a race, assuming you are racing, and not doing long 'fun runs'... if you are doing marathons as long runs, or a lot of walk/run stuff, then gels and such can certainly help keep you fueled. I'm talking 4hr+ marathons. If, however, you are sustaining a 'race pace' effort then there are other factors that will impede you before fueling comes into play...
Let's start with mitochondria. These are the cellular power plants that produce ATP to fuel your muscles. The more mitochondria you have developed, the more energy can be produced to fuel muscle contraction. BUT, and it's a big BUT, you also need enough oxygen available for the mitochondria to produce energy while staying aerobic. So you need a lot of mitochondria (which takes a LONG time for your body to produce) and you need a lot of oxygen delivered to the muscles. So you need to improve your VO2 Max (how much oxygen can be processed from your lungs into the blood stream) and you need to maximize your red blood cell count as that is how the oxygen is transported to the muscles (aerobic capacity).
Assuming that you are running at an appropriate level of effort for the amount of mitochondria you have, and have enough available oxygen to avoid sustained anaerobic energy production, you have enough fuel already in the body to complete a marathon with adding any additional fuel. MOST issues with 'bonking' in a marathon have little to do with fueling during the race. The runner literally runs past their fitness level. No matter how much free glycogen is in the bloodstream (from gel consumption), if the demand for energy exceeds the capacity of the mitochondria to produce, or if you have enough mitochondria but demand more energy than you have in terms of available oxygen, you will bonk. That's the physiology of it. It doesn't matter how much free glycogen is in the blood.
Heart rate is one of the key indicators of fitness and overall energy availability. Any runner who trains over time and monitors their HR will see their HR naturally lowers as their fitness improves. The heart responds to demands from the muscles. When HR goes up, your mitochondria needs more oxygen to meet the energy demand. The more you improve your VO2Max and overall aerobic capacity, the lower your HR will be as your fitness improves. The more mitochondria you have available, the easier it is for your body to produce the energy needed to fuel the muscles.
So... you can have a runner that runs a fast 5k that predicts a certain marathon potential. In my experience, the #1 limiter is mitochondrial density. Your limit is the amount of energy that can be produced by the mitochondria that you have. The second biggest limiter is the amount of oxygen that is available to use at the cellular level. So I run at 'X' effort... if I don't have enough mitochondria to meet the energy demand, I crash. If I have enough mitochondria, but not enough available oxygen, I go anaerobic and I crash (or slow way down until the body stabilizes and then continue).
It's only when I am running at the appropriate effort level, have enough mitochondria to support that effort, have enough available oxygen at the cellular level to support the mitochondria demands, that adding some kind of glycogen supplement can actually aid in enhancing performance. Add to that the fact that during the peak of marathon racing much of the digestive system is tapered off... ingesting a gel 2hrs into a hard marathon effort will not typically mean that energy is available 20 mins later. It takes much longer for that to result in free glycogen in the bloodstream. It's even less effective in warmer temps when the body is shunting blood away from the core and into the surface-level capillaries to promote cooling...
Okay, so with all that... is fueling during the race really that critical? I don't think so, and my personal experience supports my conclusion. In my first marathon I think I ingested something like 9 gels (ran a 4:23). In my fastest, I had 1 gel after mile 18. In many marathons I took no gels (only water) and ran just fine.
I think that fueling gets a lot of hype because it sounds like the 'easy button'. It's a easy explanation for not hitting a goal. It's something that you can control. The actual physiological limiters take a lot of training to improve... and in some cases, we are talking about years of training to maximize the potential.
Well, that's probably enough of that... everything written above is just my opinion to be considered/discarded as you see fit..
Happy Wednesday, everybody! Go run or something...
be curious; not judgmental
Problem Child
RP - Maybe never ? I ran the perfect marathon, I have very little incentive to ever run another again. That is of course subject to change in the future. And then I finally understood what happens to some people at the end of races. I got overcome with emotions and cried like a child.
RP - Maybe never ? I ran the perfect marathon, I have very little incentive to ever run another again. That is of course subject to change in the future.
And then I finally understood what happens to some people at the end of races.
I got overcome with emotions and cried like a child.
I kind of giggled when you said you're running 1 mile pace, and the thought of speeding up occurred to you. Especially since you're into 800m training now.
As for the rush of emotions....It's like a Mike Tyson punch to the heart.
Western States Pacing 2019. (https://www.strava.com/athletes/11771317/posts/5763486)
The biggest, and weirdest, rush of emotions hits me like a jab to the chest that I wasn’t prepared for. I’m not talking about how you feel when you get a gift you didn’t expect, you win a race, you passed that test, had a kid, or lost a loved one. I’m talking about this overwhelming hit to the heart like heroin entering your arm and coursing through your veins controlling every dopamine receptor in your body you didn’t know exist and pumping them with one of the weirdest moments in your life. It’s like runners high but I just want to stop and cry.
It hits again. Harder than the first time. “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth” according to Mike Tyson. The second biggest punch of emotion his me like a Mike Tyson TKO and I have NO plan on how to deal with it. “holy fuck. Hold it together. Holy shit.” Just like the first time it happened I have no idea where it came from, what brought it on, how to control it, what it will do to me over the next 30 seconds, and as fast and hard as it hits me it’s gone. Twice in the last mile I’m almost brought to my knees with emotion so hard and unexpected I want to ride that high like a stallion through the night and it’s not drug induced or store bought and you can’t bottle that shit up and save it for later. It’s self-inflicted and there hasn’t been any other way for me to find it until right now.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Mr MattM - thanks for the physiology lesson! I've always been only vaguely familiar with all that stuff, never really bothered to properly educate myself. However it makes sense and I agree (without having the science) that fueling is a pretty minor contributor to success or failure, and that people overemphasize the importance of it. (I could swear I've written something like that recently.) I am religious about my fueling strategy - I take 1 standard Gu every 6 miles of a marathon. But I've never had any interest in experimenting with it - I've used the same fuel and frequency since my first marathon run at 4:16 through my last one, 21 races and 11 years later at 3:14. I figure it probably doesn't hurt me, and if there's the small chance it helps when everything else goes perfectly, why not.
Dave
Hot Weather Complainer
Very interesting fueling discussion. I'm sure it varies from person to person too. Especially interesting that Flavio got through with so little, especially with some history of cramp. I thought strength was my issue too but it hasn't solved it yet - I suspect it's rarely just the one thing.
Dave - I see someone on my Strava got their NYC acceptance today - she has similar times for me so as a female she has a massive buffer. I wonder if that means they send them out in order...or they've sent them all out already and it's just the rejections left to send. Any sign of acceptance for you?
5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23
Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55
Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024 1:27:34
Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024
Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024
Got my acceptance email today! Sorry I missed posting in this thread...I thought I posted it EVERYWHERE.
No one has any idea how they are doing this. But seems like there was a batch yesterday, and another batch today. So they may just keep trickling in for a while. Of the people I've seen post either acceptances or lack of, there hasn't been a ton of rhyme or reason on the criteria.
I had 7 minutes buffer on a half - 1:29 vs 1:36 standard for M55-59. I also had a 9 minute buffer on the full standard, but I submitted the half time because that looks better in terms of 10k equivalent, which is how they evaluate them all. The fact that they use that 10k conversion may muck things up so it's not a single cutoff across the board for all AGs. But again...no one has any idea how they're doing it.
Fantastic, congratulations!
My qualifier was 1:26:48 but that's only a 1:12 buffer for my age group. Given that the buffer is as much as 7 minutes and no email yet, this may not be my year.
Mother of Cats
Thought:
It would be interesting to survey people on a) how much nutrition they need during a marathon and b) how fast their marathon PR is compared to their 5K PR.
I know that I require a lot of nutrition during a marathon, and I've bonked when I have only taken 4-5 gels (which would be too much for many of you, apparently). I also know that my marathon performances have always been better than one would predict from my 5K.
My speculation is that since my marathon pace is a lot closer to my 5K pace, I burn a bit hotter during the race (for lack of a better term) and so need more sugar to finish well. Someone who has more room between marathon and 5K pace might function completely differently.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Delurking. With fueling, I'd also wonder what was consumed prior to the race. Do those who eat nothing or hardly anything take more gels during a race? And if you eat something a little more substantial, do you require less.
It would be interesting to survey people on a) how much nutrition they need during a marathon and b) how fast their marathon PR is compared to their 5K PR. I know that I require a lot of nutrition during a marathon, and I've bonked when I have only taken 4-5 gels (which would be too much for many of you, apparently). I also know that my marathon performances have always been better than one would predict from my 5K. My speculation is that since my marathon pace is a lot closer to my 5K pace, I burn a bit hotter during the race (for lack of a better term) and so need more sugar to finish well. Someone who has more room between marathon and 5K pace might function completely differently.
Some other considerations are
1) marathon time. Nutrition requirement are going to be different for a sub-3:00 marathon than a 5:00 plus marathon.
2) genetic makeup. Some runners are more suited to 5K, some to the marathon. Looking at age ratings, I have a mild drop off after 5K and a significant drop off after the half marathon. 800m is my best age rating and the only one where I've exceeded 80%.
3) training mileage. That's not only during the 4 months or so of most marathon training plans, but long term month after month and year after year. Endurance fitness is cumulative. And as one becomes more efficient, the nutrition requirements may decrease.
Andy - Way to go! Big PR. Maybe a springboard to a lot of PRs this year. I think you could crush your full PR. Good luck working towards your 5K in a few weeks! Looking forward to that next race report.
Flavio - Congratulations! Well deserved. I thought your fitness was plenty good to go sub 3, but you got sick the last time and had to wait a little longer. Eventually you had to get a race day where you felt good and the weather was pleasant. Very smart and calm approach to follow the pacers and just mentally check out. Obsessing over mile splits is never going to benefit anyone. It's great that you not only broke 3, but finished really strong which is just icing on the cake. I am not a fan of that beer in the finish photo, 0.0% alcohol? At the finish line? It's party time!
People stress way too much over silly details like hydration, fueling (see previous posts), footwear, tapers and on and on. I'm glad you took a more relaxed approach and enjoyed your experience. Most people just need to get their aerobic capacity up (like mrmattm suggested) and then go race. If my body didn't break down so easy, I'd be running 80-100 miles a week and 90% of it would be jogging. I think a lot of people would benefit from watching this guy discussing low heart rate training/aerobic capacity while running a full sub-3 marathon and holding the camera the entire time. It's just a random hard/long morning run for that guy, because his aerobic fitness is so good. He does not seem stressed about anything, finishes hard and is genuinely laughing moments after stopping.
If I were you, I would keep your mileage on the higher side and work your way down in race distance by adding speed workouts and lowering mileage as necessary. You have great aerobic fitness now, so try to keep that up and crush a 10k in a few months, then a 5k, etc. For your 800, try to get your 400 to 62-63 seconds. That should get you a sub 2:20. I used to run my 800 about 7 to 7.5 seconds off my 400. I'll be honest I had never even thought about that relationship until your post, but it was very consistent for me. I'm apparently on the bad aerobic/slow side for the 800. That makes sense, I ran low mileage, never ran on weekends, never did a long run of any kind. From what I gather other 800 runners with my 400, would have shaved off another 2-3 seconds.
Once you get serious about the 800 distance, you are going to want to be doing 100s, 150s, 200s, 300s. I used to like workouts like:
100,200,300,200,100. All of those all out.
Hard 300, rest 15 seconds, and then all out 100 to finish the lap. Maybe 6 of those.
200 repeats hard and run the other 200 part of the lap at a moderate pace, like 10 of those.
Uphill sprints, like 15 seconds. Maybe 15-20 reps. Those are short and sweet, and they build some strength.
Longer uphill sprints like 200 meters, pushups at the top, jog back down, ab work at the bottom. Like 10 of those.
The list of fun is endless! At least that was fun on an 18 year old body haha. The asphalt used to burn my hands on the pushups, but I loved it.
Also my update:
Not a great week. My PF is bad, really unpleasant when I run hard. Still battling chest congestion. I was coughing hard enough on my 800 repeats, that I hurt my abdomen. Now I'm worrying about that being a hernia, I'm assuming this is what a hernia feels like. My right hip, my white whale, has finally decided to wake up and ache. Tried to do 800s last Thursday, only managed 2.5. Just really worn down, so pulled the plug. This week is even worse, my legs are dead and everything is breaking down. Still really stressed and not getting great sleep.
Other than that, I'm doing well. I'm focusing on eating healthier and trying to eat anti-inflammatory foods. I'm trying to stay positive about my 5k next weekend (10 days). I ran the bridge a few times. It's almost exactly .375 up and down, or .75 miles total. Out and back on that is 1.5 miles of hills on a 3+ mile race, so not ideal. Just hoping for a day without high winds. I also can't do much about my vo2 or speed with my foot issue. The pushing off when I accelerate on a sprint is the worst, and the landings during intervals and tempos are rough. I'm afraid to keep pushing my luck. I'm just going to try to drop another pound or 2 of bodyweight and lift some hard weights between now and the weekend, then it's time to rest up next week and see how it goes. I know I'll be close to 20 minutes, but not sure I can go under on this bridge race. I do feel close enough to set my next goal which is sub 19 in June. That gives me April to heal up and then 8 weeks to train. Either my injuries will heal or they won't and then my goal won't matter much.
Waited a few days to post my update since everyone was posting awesome results. Didn't want to bring the vibe down with my list of grievances.
Its of course highly subjective and the biggest impacts are genetics, cumulative running experience, training mileage.
But if we go with the sample size of one, why not with the runner that has won 18 out of 20 marathons he has entered? He consumes 100gr of carbs per hour. In Berlin, Kipchoge works with a guy (bottle Claus - check him out on youtube) who hands him a bottle with gel every 2.5km on the back half!
Not saying its for everyone. But science has moved on and all else equal, if you are capable of fueling efficiently, you are a faster long distance runner. (I am not yet paid by Maurten, but hope they reach out one day)
HM: 1:47 (9/20) I FM: 3:53:11 (9/23)
2024 Goals: run a FM & HM + stay healthy!
Not an 80%er
Steve - I don't think fueling was ever an issue for me, rather lack of muscular endurance.I'm pretty certain that my recent work on strength training with heavy weights is what allowed me to run marathons without cramps.And by that I mean the work with the barbell squat and the deadlift with heavy weights, like 80%+ of my max RM.Honestly your cramps seem to be something else, but I hope you can figure it out soon.
On a side note, when you commented "drink all the beers" on Strava I chuckled a bit, not only I didn't drink anything I was also in bed by 7PM that day LOL"And the crowd went MILD" 😂
MT79 - Thanks for the info re: 800m training. I know I can run sub 2:30, but it sounds like a sub 2:20 is gonna be harder than I was thinking, which is a good thing I guess, a nice objective to chase.Sorry to hear about the PF troubles, one would think the poor sleep is a major factor.From your description I can imagine you have some strength/nerve imbalances around gluteus medius, ilipsoas and maybe also hamstrings? That would appear to be the root cause of your issues.
MT79 / WCRunner / others - If anybody has a link to a good 800m training plan please send it my way.I know Jack Daniels has a plan in his book, but I refuse to follow what that sadist says 😁
MickJogger - Hiatal hernia makes sure I often cannot consume too many gels so I probably couldn't consume more even if I wanted.
Also do note I was not running to my best possible marathon time, I just wanted a sub 3 result with the minimum amount of effort possible.
I was likely in 2h57 or maybe even 2h56 high shape, seeing as I could speed up to mile pace with 300m to go.
If we're talking about the elites, I'd also like to point out that I wore the Altra Torin 5 which as far as I understand does not have a carbon plate 😈
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials)
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Got my acceptance email today! Sorry I missed posting in this thread...I thought I posted it EVERYWHERE. No one has any idea how they are doing this. But seems like there was a batch yesterday, and another batch today. So they may just keep trickling in for a while. Of the people I've seen post either acceptances or lack of, there hasn't been a ton of rhyme or reason on the criteria. I had 7 minutes buffer on a half - 1:29 vs 1:36 standard for M55-59. I also had a 9 minute buffer on the full standard, but I submitted the half time because that looks better in terms of 10k equivalent, which is how they evaluate them all. The fact that they use that 10k conversion may muck things up so it's not a single cutoff across the board for all AGs. But again...no one has any idea how they're doing it.
*constantly checks for email from New York Road Runners*
I'm still "pending" so perhaps they're doing a "Boston style" acceptance and notify those with the fastest times first. With only 9,000 time qualifier slots I'm not surprised having slightly over 1 minute off my time isn't notifying me at the same time. I'm not expecting to get in other than maybe the lottery at this point.
*EDIT* I'm older....so I have a 2:38 buffer.
Thought: It would be interesting to survey people on a) how much nutrition they need during a marathon and b) how fast their marathon PR is compared to their 5K PR.
Nutrition: Marathons are 1 gel 10 minutes before, and a gel every 6-ish miles. Something around 40-45 minutes.
Marathon PR 2:55:22
5k PR 18:11
5K PR was set in March, and in April I set my marathon PR. 5k course was not flat and had turns. Marathon PR is hilly and massively downhill while also being known for having weather at some point occur. Also included stopping to kiss an unidentified female spectator which directly contributed to my time.