Forums >Cross Training>Heavy strength training and plyometric improves running economy. No improvements from high reps/low load. Findings from new systematic review w. meta analysis
Intl. correspondent
I've stumbled upon this very interesting reddit thread:
https://old.reddit.com/r/AdvancedRunning/comments/19433e3/heavy_strength_training_and_plyometric_improves/
A very useful discussion around strength training. The initial post is a meta analysis of multiple studies around the subject.
For what is worth, that seems to be the consensus on the industry lately.
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Interesting, but I don't know much about strength training and had to look up what "plyometric" means. I gather the idea is to use heavier weights and short periods of higher intensity exercises rather than doing many reps. I'm not clear as to what exercises are best for running, work on core strength, leg muscles or something else? I do know weight lifters who also are runners, but it seems to me the goals of developing muscle mass and running faster and longer have some contradictions. Is it not true that lifting involves developing fast twitch muscle fibers and a long distance runner needs lots of efficient slow twitch?
Long distance runner, what you standin' there for?Get up, get out, get out of the door!
Serious runners have been doing proper strength training for decades. It’s amateur athletes that tend to go too light on the weights. Injury risk, needing spotters, self-consciousness drive a lot of people to avoid gyms and building out a home gym is a huge hassle.
Luckily, there are a lot of good resources out there today for single leg workouts and plyometrics that require very little equipment. As I mentioned in the competitive thread, a good start would just be sprinting and hill sprinting, which is already too big an ask for the vast majority of joggers.
I gather the idea is to use heavier weights and short periods of higher intensity exercises rather than doing many reps.
Yes, according to the books you already do high-rep low intensity exercise when running. Lifting has other purposes, namely:
Better coordination
Stronger core = better running economy = run faster at the same effort
Neurological adaptations that train your body to recruit more muscle fibers, and that also translates to more power when running.
Stronger muscles, tendons and joints also mean you have "guard-rails" against injuries.
Additionally, there's the factor that we lose muscle mass as we age.
That takes quite some time to become visible, but the most common symptom is tripping and falling when older.
Thankfully we can sort of undo that via strength training, leading to a healthier and better life at older ages.
I'm not clear as to what exercises are best for running, work on core strength, leg muscles or something else?
The king of exercises is the barbell squat. Single leg variations are also very useful such as the split squat and bulgarian squats.
Then the deadlift and it's single leg friend the airplane aka single leg deadlift.
Box step ups are also nice.
Pull ups, pushups, overhead press are also good for a stronger core and back.
I'm not clear as to what exercises are best for running, work on core strength, leg muscles or something else? I do know weight lifters who also are runners, but it seems to me the goals of developing muscle mass and running faster and longer have some contradictions. Is it not true that lifting involves developing fast twitch muscle fibers and a long distance runner needs lots of efficient slow twitch?
In order to develop muscle mass you need to be eating huge amounts of protein and depending on your genetics, gotta be younger.
The level of exercise for hypertrophy is also different, focusing on the 8-12 rep range, not so close to max 1 RM.
For running we want to increase power. In order to do that we want to become strong.
And for that we're looking at doing squats and deadlifts around 70 to 80% of your 1 RM max, and doing 3 to 5 reps.
So an example session would be:
3x5 reps barbell squat at 80%
1-3x5 reps deadlift at around 80%
There's a book by Richard Blagrove called "Strength and Conditioning for Endurance Running" which contains detailed explanations of what I posted above, along with form cues for each of the exercises and more importantly, how to plan a strength training routine and how to adjust that so it does not interfere with the phases of your running.
There's another very easy routine to follow for somebody just starting:
https://stronglifts.com/5x5/
MT - Yup, maybe some strides in the beginning, leading to some short sprints (10s) leading to maybe longer sprints of 20s, leading to after a little while hill sprints.
But you can add strength from the beginning, the only caveat being that I strongly believe you should never do heavy (80% of max or higher) squats or dead lifts alone.
Thanks for this flavio. I'm honestly not surprised isometric holds don't do much. Abs are one thing, but for legs? Running is a complex movement. Never made sense to me to do wall sits. When I was in HS, a couple of the other runners did them but I refused. I don't know how true this is, but I believe I've heard that isometric holds mostly only strengthen the muscles in THAT position.
Flavio80 - Thanks for the suggestions! Right now I am trying to increase my weekly distance by two miles each week. My legs are already sore, I can't imagine adding lifting right now, although maybe it would be better to cut down the miles and do some strength training. I don't have anyone to be a spotter, so maybe heavy weights would be dangerous. There is a fitness center 1/4 mile from my house, would be safer to use the machines, but membership is expensive. My usual strength training for the legs are the hills, which I encounter in most of my runs. The cheapest copy of the Blagrove book I found would cost $22 and one of the reviews said it was too much information for the average runner. An alternative book I looked at is "Quick Strength for Runners: 8 Weeks to a Better Runner" by Jeff Horowitz, a simplified training and I could get it for $7.
Altair, if you do single leg variations like Bulgarian split squats, single leg dead lifts, lunges, etc, you don't need as much weight. You may even start with no weight to get the movement down.
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Greetings! Question(s) for Flavio: do you do any protein supplementation via protein drinks, etc? Also: any thoughts on what an appropriate daily protein intake (e.g., grams protein per kg of body weight) is for high-mileage runners trying to gain strength as you describe below? --Thanks, Christine
Yes, according to the books you already do high-rep low intensity exercise when running. Lifting has other purposes, namely: Better coordination Stronger core = better running economy = run faster at the same effort Neurological adaptations that train your body to recruit more muscle fibers, and that also translates to more power when running. Stronger muscles, tendons and joints also mean you have "guard-rails" against injuries. Additionally, there's the factor that we lose muscle mass as we age. That takes quite some time to become visible, but the most common symptom is tripping and falling when older. Thankfully we can sort of undo that via strength training, leading to a healthier and better life at older ages. The king of exercises is the barbell squat. Single leg variations are also very useful such as the split squat and bulgarian squats. Then the deadlift and it's single leg friend the airplane aka single leg deadlift. Box step ups are also nice. Pull ups, pushups, overhead press are also good for a stronger core and back. In order to develop muscle mass you need to be eating huge amounts of protein and depending on your genetics, gotta be younger. The level of exercise for hypertrophy is also different, focusing on the 8-12 rep range, not so close to max 1 RM. For running we want to increase power. In order to do that we want to become strong. And for that we're looking at doing squats and deadlifts around 70 to 80% of your 1 RM max, and doing 3 to 5 reps. So an example session would be: 3x5 reps barbell squat at 80% 1-3x5 reps deadlift at around 80% There's a book by Richard Blagrove called "Strength and Conditioning for Endurance Running" which contains detailed explanations of what I posted above, along with form cues for each of the exercises and more importantly, how to plan a strength training routine and how to adjust that so it does not interfere with the phases of your running. There's another very easy routine to follow for somebody just starting: https://stronglifts.com/5x5/ MT - Yup, maybe some strides in the beginning, leading to some short sprints (10s) leading to maybe longer sprints of 20s, leading to after a little while hill sprints. But you can add strength from the beginning, the only caveat being that I strongly believe you should never do heavy (80% of max or higher) squats or dead lifts alone.
Altair - I wouldn't say the book has too much information. I found it to have the necessary information if you're one who likes to understand the "why's" behind things. That said, there are certainly simpler ways to integrate some form of strength into your routine, like the single leg variations listed by Half Crazy K.From what I could understand, the actual volume of strength training that is needed to improve running is not that much, you could be making some nice gains in running economy with 2 sessions of 20 minutes each per week, provided that you're focusing on the low reps (3-5) with as much weight as you can safely handle for those reps.You can do Bulgarian squats holding a barbell with weights on your back, or holding kettlebells, or dumbbells, but weight is weight, it could be gallons of milk or holding children by the back of their onesie LOL.
Christine - I do try to consume as much protein as I can and I'm cheating with some high protein yoghurts and protein puddings.
I've also found a breakfast cereal mix with wheat, oats and raisins (no sugar added) from a brand called Alpen.
There's only so much you can stomach in a day and protein takes longer to digest. I try to find the protein drinks with sweetener instead of sugar to try to keep the glycemic index lower (for whole health reasons).
I've seen nutritionists recommend up to twice your body weight, but I honestly find that very hard to achieve.
I'm probably around 1g to 1.5g per kg of bodyweight per day at the moment. I do find higher protein consumption helps with faster recovery from both running and lifting.
Hi Flavio - thanks the reply! Makes sense, as I'd heard ~ 1 gm/kg body weight as a decent goal for runners, with a little more if one wants to gain muscle. If I just prioritized getting 1 gm/kg every day, I'd likely improve.
Now that I think about it, I could get there with one Carnivor shake (https://musclemedsrx.com/products/carnivor?variant=32096323797037; 23 g protein in 120 cal), half a cup of cottage cheese (12 g, ~ 100 cal), and about one can of tuna. I already do the first two most weekdays.
Time to get consistent. Thanks again!
A bit off topic, since I'm not talking about running economy or being a better runner.
I'm tall and naturally very thin. Started running later in life (age 42) and got pretty good at it (good being subjective, of course). I was doing a lot of volume (again, a lot is subjective) and always trying to be faster at marathons.
I was fast but very weak: very little balance, had to always hold the rail to go down stairs, couldn't stand on one leg for a few seconds. And was starting to get leg injuries.
Decided to cut down on the running (that's why I'm off topic) and do strenghtening routines. I only own a 35 lb kettlebell and I like to use windshiels washer fluid gallons as barbells. I do lunges, goblet squats, kettlebell swings, bulgarian split squats, etc.
My point in this discussion is that even though I'm not trying to improve my running by doing strength work, I can still feel what it's doing to my running, and in the short term it's not helping it. I don't know about long term, but when I get towards the end of a long run, my quads are often shot from my lifting. My butt is often bugging me: not cramps but kind of an acute soreness when I run (during the heel lift of the running form).
I'm keeping at it because I need more well rounded fitness at my age than just cardio and speed, but if I were doing it to improve my running, I'd be skeptical.
This is just one man's experience. Not worth much, but I felt like sharing.
Good morning, cyberic, and thanks for sharing! I'm built like you, and will keep an eye out for the developments you described.
FWIW, once in a while during heavy (high-mileage + decent quality) training, I'd get what I called "screechy legs": my quads would break out into a whine every time I ran up a hill with any steepness. I took this to mean I wasn't getting carbs in fast enough after runs, and so would start drinking a 12 oz can of full-sugar soda right after my runs. (I only ran once a day.) This seemed to help the problem.
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Cyberic - thanks for sharing your experience.
What kind of volume are you doing for the exercises ? Is it more 3 sets of 5 reps, or more like 3 sets of 15-30 reps ?
I find that tons of reps with a moderate weight (say 40% of 1RM) leave me a lot more sore than fewer reps with heavier weight (ex: 75% of 1RM).
Next question is when do you do the lifting in comparison with your harder running days.
I've found that doing the hard running workout in the AM and the lifting in the PM works well.
In the past I've found that doing the lifting in the PM and a running workout in the AM next morning was not nice.
I could definitely not lift the day before the long run as the long run is the one run that depletes me the most.
Regarding benefits to my run, I've seen plenty, but they're not always obvious.
Recently I had a breakthrough with my barbell squats for instance, and since then I notice it's easier to run uphills.
But more importantly, I have exactly zero injuries caused by running since I started strength training. And I had to take 26 weeks off in total due to injury the year prior to that (2017).
One other thing I've found that I think is important: Initially I've worked with a strength training coach, he did some assessment of my skills and gaps and prescribed some routines. It seems to me that that works better than just doing a routine yourself as we're often clueless of what's holding us back.
For instance I used to twist more to the right side than to the left side. He gave me some anti-rotation exercises to combat that, and it worked well.
Ultimately though we're all an experiment of one, so what works for me might not work for you and vice-versa.
Flavio,
I'm not doing anything very stuctured, but since I don't have heavy weights (1 kettlebell and 1 gallon jugs of windshield washer) I'm more in the 3-5 sets of 10-50 reps depending on the exercise and the difficulty given the weights I have available.
I run in the morning, always. Running is my main activity. I run, and because I run I am in top health. No pills whatsoever, everything in the green. It is also my meditation. I always run outdoors, when there's not many people awake. I just zone out. During the winter no intensity whatsoever. I just run. These past years, I am forcing myself not to only run all the time, but it is still what I prefer. For volume, it depends. Maybe 50 miles/week ish lately.
I then do strength training whenever I have a few minutes during the day. The idea is to become stronger,.more stable, and so on.
I have no objective in either running or lifting. I just want to be the healthiest all-around 54 yo man I can be.
So no coach, no gym membership, no numbers to obsess over, I just wing it because that is exactly what I want to do. I actually don't even care for my strength work helping my running. I'm simply stating how I'm feeling right now that I've started resistance training. Hopefully with time the streghtening will help stabilize me when I run and will help with injury prevention, but again, that is not why I'm doing it.
And thanks Flavio for sharing and helping others.