12

8 months of quad pain. (Read 128 times)

brady steele


    Hello. I am a 10th grade xc/steeplechase runner. I run a 4:51 mile, and I have been running for 3 years. When I am in heavy base training, I have around 60 mile weeks training at epr: 6:00 pace, steady state: 5:40-5:50 pace, and tempo: 5:20-5:35 pace. During xc and track season I have been running 40-50 mile weeks of mostly speed and longer recovery runs. I have been having quad pain in both of my legs for coming up on 8 months now. The pain started in my calves for about a month, and it transitioned to my quads. I have tried pretty much everything. I was getting soft tissue massages from an airrosti doctor once every 2 weeks for 4 months, but nothing changed. I have tried actively foam rolling, and have not felt any difference in the on/off time. I have gotten multiple accounts of blood taken lately, and I am anemic and have a parvo virus that causes my body to eat its own red blood cells, but the doctors say that only affects me being tired a lot. From the multiple tests, it has been shown that my quads have no inflammation or muscle damage in them. When I run, it hurts faster the faster I run. My quads have a burning/tired pain that stops immediately when I stop running. I have taken potassium pills,tried electrolyte chews, I have excellent hydration habits, and I take good care of my legs. Any suggestions would be helpful, as I am completely stumped... I am able to run everyday, but I can only make it a certain distance depending on the speed. I am willing to provide any further information if necessary. Thanks.

      I can't help with the quad pain, but if you are truly running 6:00 mpm on your easy run,  I think you need to slow down, a lot, on easy days.   


      Feeling the growl again

        Your quads hurt because you are training too fast and beating them up.  Even when I was running 10Ks at 5min/mile and slightly under I was not doing more than 20% of my total weekly mileage under 6min/mile; easy days were 6:30-7min/mile.  Of course I ran intervals at 4:40-5:00 pace and tempos 5:10-5:20 pace but altogether that was no more than 20% of total miles.

         

        If it is more than 20%, you need to slow down the rest even more.

        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

         

        brady steele


          I can't help with the quad pain, but if you are truly running 6:00 mpm on your easy run,  I think you need to slow down, a lot, on easy days.   

           

           

          my avg pace for 10 miles was 5:58. Our coach makes the top group stay on our number 1 runner for as long as possible...he is a 4:20 miler

             

             

            my avg pace for 10 miles was 5:58. Our coach makes the top group stay on our number 1 runner for as long as possible...he is a 4:20 miler

             

            Fantastic... but you cant' run every training run at near race effort, for very long.  You will either get sick, injuried,or both. And, it sounds like you're on the verge of something serious with your quads.  Running every training run like a race is a recipe for dissaster.

             

            It matters not how good of a runner your coach was.   I had a friend in HS that was a 4:20 miler too. He and I would run our easy days, too fast, and it was in the 6:45 rance.

             

            I recall reading in Ryan Hall's book how easy days at 6:00 pace was the standard for many of the elite runners. However, he realized his body can't handle that speed all the time

            brady steele


               

              Fantastic... but you cant' run every training run at near race effort, for very long.  You will either get sick, injuried,or both. And, it sounds like you're on the verge of something serious with your quads.  Running every training run like a race is a recipe for dissaster.

               

              It matters not how good of a runner your coach was.   I had a friend in HS that was a 4:20 miler too. He and I would run our easy days, too fast, and it was in the 6:45 rance.

               

              I recall reading in Ryan Hall's book how easy days at 6:00 pace was the standard for many of the elite runners. However, he realized his body can't handle that speed all the time

               

               

              I didn't mean the coach. I meant he makes us run with the top Guy who runs a 4:20.


              Feeling the growl again

                 

                 

                I didn't mean the coach. I meant he makes us run with the top Guy who runs a 4:20.

                 

                Then the 4:20 guy is the only person getting the right training.  The rest of you are being over-trained to varying degrees.

                 

                Actually, I have trained with a lot of 4:20 guys over the years and not one of them went out and called a sub-60 10-miler an easy training run.

                 

                I was a 4:53 miler in HS...very close to you.  In retrospect I ran workouts too hard because I didn't know better, my coach didn't know better, and there was no internet to tell me any differently.  However, I never ran as fast as much as you appear to be doing.

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 

                   

                   

                  my avg pace for 10 miles was 5:58. Our coach makes the top group stay on our number 1 runner for as long as possible...he is a 4:20 miler

                   

                  Sounds like your coach is a moron.  Lots I could say about this, but I've told my son, who is your age and also about a 4:50 guy, NOT to get into those kinds of races with his teammates on their long runs.  No good can come of it.  If your teammates want to run 10 milers at sub-6 pace, let them go.  You run them *easy* and just cover the miles.  Then turn it loose on the days that are supposed to be fast.  You will be a lot less likely to get hurt and probably you will get a lot faster, too, since you will be able to tolerate/train at higher intensities on days that are actually supposed to be hard.

                  - Joe

                  We are fragile creatures on collision with our judgment day.

                  brady steele


                     

                    Sounds like your coach is a moron.  Lots I could say about this, but I've told my son, who is your age and also about a 4:50 guy, NOT to get into those kinds of races with his teammates on their long runs.  No good can come of it.  If your teammates want to run 10 milers at sub-6 pace, let them go.  You run them *easy* and just cover the miles.  Then turn it loose on the days that are supposed to be fast.  You will be a lot less likely to get hurt and probably you will get a lot faster, too, since you will be able to tolerate/train at higher intensities on days that are actually supposed to be hard.

                     

                    Our coach lives on the belief that if you go with the fastest guys pace, you get the best training. What would you or anyone recommend for me to change up my long run pace( e.x: 10-16 miles)? Because technically, my long run pace should be 6:11.

                       

                      Our coach lives on the belief that if you go with the fastest guys pace, you get the best training. What would you or anyone recommend for me to change up my long run pace( e.x: 10-16 miles)? Because technically, my long run pace should be 6:11.

                       

                      why do you think your long run pace should be 6:11?  McMillan gives a rage of about 6:40 to 7:45 for your currnet mile PR.  But, you also have to consider that when you ran your mile PR, you were likely in flats in a race setting.  So, actual training paces will be slower. This is especially true for the long run. 

                       

                      It's hard to "disobey" the coach (been there) but he/she has to realize (or learn) that those training paces are way too fast. 

                      brady steele


                         

                        why do you think your long run pace should be 6:11?  McMillan gives a rage of about 6:40 to 7:45 for your currnet mile PR.  But, you also have to consider that when you ran your mile PR, you were likely in flats in a race setting.  So, actual training paces will be slower. This is especially true for the long run. 

                         

                        It's hard to "disobey" the coach (been there) but he/she has to realize (or learn) that those training paces are way too fast. 

                         

                        I get my paces from tempo: add 45 seconds to pr. steady state: add 1 minute to pr. Epr: add 1 minute 20 seconds to pr.

                           

                          I get my paces from tempo: add 45 seconds to pr. steady state: add 1 minute to pr. Epr: add 1 minute 20 seconds to pr.

                           

                          I don't know where those formulas came from, but I suggest plugging your mile PR (or better yet a longer race) into nearly any reputable running calculator and I will guarantee you your easy pace guidelines will not be anywhere near 6:11.

                           

                          Still, when Spaniel and Joescott tell you you're running too fast, you're running too fast.  They are good, experienced runners. They can still run faster than a 4:52 for a mile and they don't run their easy runs as fast as you. . Listen to them. It's for your own good.

                           

                          There's an old adage that's important to heed: "If you want to run faster, you have to run more. To run more, you have to run slower."

                           

                          I know it's hard for a HS runner to set aside their ego and run slower, but there are no [meaningful] awards for winning a practice run. What matters is how you perform in the actual races.  As Joescott said, "run easy on your easy days so that you can run hard on your hard days."  As a result, you'll race faster when it counts.

                          brady steele


                             

                            I don't know where those formulas came from, but I suggest plugging your mile PR (or better yet a longer race) into nearly any reputable running calculator and I will guarantee you your easy pace guidelines will not be anywhere near 6:11.

                             

                            Still, when Spaniel and Joescott tell you you're running too fast, you're running too fast.  They are good, experienced runners. They can still run faster than a 4:52 for a mile and they don't run their easy runs as fast as you. . Listen to them. It's for your own good.

                             

                            There's an old adage that's important to heed: "If you want to run faster, you have to run more. To run more, you have to run slower."

                             

                            I know it's hard for a HS runner to set aside their ego and run slower, but there are no [meaningful] awards for winning a practice run. What matters is how you perform in the actual races.  As Joescott said, "run easy on your easy days so that you can run hard on your hard days."  As a result, you'll race faster when it counts.

                             

                            I will train for a while using the paces from the calculator. Also, do you think that it is possible that my blood diseases could affect my pain in any way?


                            Feeling the growl again

                               

                              Our coach lives on the belief that if you go with the fastest guys pace, you get the best training. What would you or anyone recommend for me to change up my long run pace( e.x: 10-16 miles)? Because technically, my long run pace should be 6:11.

                               

                              So let's analyze your coach's logic.  All of you should hammer it to keep up with a guy way, way faster than you.  So you are basically racing every run.  By this logic, your coach is not optimally training your fastest runner because he is the one least challenged.   The slowest runners are being trained "best" and the better runners "worst".

                               

                              I was trying to be nice, but your coach knows absolutely nothing about training distance runners.

                               

                              I understand the whole "hang with the faster guys" thing, I have over a decade of team running (JH, HS, college) under my belt.  It has its place, but not for every or most every run.  That's just a stupid way to burn out/injure most of your team.  And you are showing signs of it with the symptoms you shared in your original post.  My senior year I was the fast guy on the team, and we did that a lot.  Then we wondered why by the end of the year it was only the top two of us who were not completely burned out.  In retrospect it is pretty obvious, we killed out 3-4-5th guys day in and day out in practice.

                               

                              I don't know where you got these formulas, but they are garbage.  Look up any reputable running reference online and they will show this.

                               

                              I may be older and mostly washed up but last fall when I ran an all-out mile I could still run 4:48 all alone.  My easy paces at which I run all but 2-3 of 7-9 runs per week is 6:40-7:00/mile.

                               

                              So why would we tell you to change our pace?  Because pretty much everyone giving you this advice has been running seriously for more years than you have been alive.  In 10th grade I could not break 5:30 for the mile because I trained a lot like you do, yet I went on to run sub-5 pace over 10K and ~5:40 pace for the marathon.  And I did it running about 70-80% of my miles, 3000-4000+ of them a year, in the 6:40-7:00 range.

                               

                              One of the nice things about this site is you can look at most of our logs/profiles/PRs and get a decent idea how real the runners are giving you the advice.  Compare that to whatever experience your coach has...I'm guessing not a whole lot.  It is good to believe in your coach and buy into the system, but when the coach/system is so far off anything reasonable it's time to start asking questions.

                               

                              MTA:  I missed the anemia part.  If you have low red blood cells or iron that can kill your running and your recovery.  It can also be a result of hammering yourself so hard, and continuing to do so will only drive you further into overtraining (if you are not already to the point that it will take weeks off to recover).  Did they start you on iron?  I'm not going to ask a minor for blood values but if your serum ferretin was much under 30 your running will certainly suffer.

                              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                               

                              brady steele


                                 

                                So let's analyze your coach's logic.  All of you should hammer it to keep up with a guy way, way faster than you.  So you are basically racing every run.  By this logic, your coach is not optimally training your fastest runner because he is the one least challenged.   The slowest runners are being trained "best" and the better runners "worst".

                                 

                                I was trying to be nice, but your coach knows absolutely nothing about training distance runners.

                                 

                                I understand the whole "hang with the faster guys" thing, I have over a decade of team running (JH, HS, college) under my belt.  It has its place, but not for every or most every run.  That's just a stupid way to burn out/injure most of your team.  And you are showing signs of it with the symptoms you shared in your original post.  My senior year I was the fast guy on the team, and we did that a lot.  Then we wondered why by the end of the year it was only the top two of us who were not completely burned out.  In retrospect it is pretty obvious, we killed out 3-4-5th guys day in and day out in practice.

                                 

                                I don't know where you got these formulas, but they are garbage.  Look up any reputable running reference online and they will show this.

                                 

                                I may be older and mostly washed up but last fall when I ran an all-out mile I could still run 4:48 all alone.  My easy paces at which I run all but 2-3 of 7-9 runs per week is 6:40-7:00/mile.

                                 

                                So why would we tell you to change our pace?  Because pretty much everyone giving you this advice has been running seriously for more years than you have been alive.  In 10th grade I could not break 5:30 for the mile because I trained a lot like you do, yet I went on to run sub-5 pace over 10K and ~5:40 pace for the marathon.  And I did it running about 70-80% of my miles, 3000-4000+ of them a year, in the 6:40-7:00 range.

                                 

                                One of the nice things about this site is you can look at most of our logs/profiles/PRs and get a decent idea how real the runners are giving you the advice.  Compare that to whatever experience your coach has...I'm guessing not a whole lot.  It is good to believe in your coach and buy into the system, but when the coach/system is so far off anything reasonable it's time to start asking questions.

                                 

                                MTA:  I missed the anemia part.  If you have low red blood cells or iron that can kill your running and your recovery.  It can also be a result of hammering yourself so hard, and continuing to do so will only drive you further into overtraining (if you are not already to the point that it will take weeks off to recover).  Did they start you on iron?  I'm not going to ask a minor for blood values but if your serum ferretin was much under 30 your running will certainly suffer.

                                 

                                I dont trust anything that this coach says. I just do what he tells us to, because I have to... I checked my chart from my blood test from 2 weeks ago, and

                                RED BLOOD CELL COUNT 4.74 Million/uL 4.10-5.70
                                   HEMOGLOBIN 11.0 g/dL 12.0-16.9
                                   HEMATOCRIT 34.1 % 36.0-49.0
                                   MCV 72.0 fL 78.0-98.0
                                   MCH 23.2 pg 25.0-35.0
                                   MCHC 32.2 g/dL 31.0-36.0
                                   RDW 16.5 % 11.0-15.0
                                   PLATELET COUNT 220   140-400

                                they have also not placed me on iron, as they want to see what happens next.

                                I was also really confused, because the tests showed that there is absolutely no muscle inflammation or muscle damage, which is why I am questioning the overworking so much.

                                12