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Dumb but honest ? about performance enhancing drugs. (Read 738 times)

Nakedbabytoes


levitation specialist

    Once you have taken them, didn't they permanently alter your system? Like the muscles you built or the extra blood cells you produced, isn't the effect at least residually permanent? Wouldn't you still have the better or larger or more base that was built by that? Can you maintain that level then, even after stopping, by training?

    Curious as to how permanent an edge up can be.

    And yes, this has to do with Lance(and other athletes who have doped....sorry.....I know....)

     

    just curious is fair is ever really fair again after taking stuff.

    DoppleBock


      ?

       

      If they are oxygen carrying related - I do not know how long, but pretty quickly your body wold come back into normal equalibrium.  It takes very little time for someone living at altitute to start losing their oxygen carrying advantage to us low landers.

       

      Not sure on some others but

       

      There are many banned substances - Sudafed (With ephedra) is banned and it clears your system within a day or so.  Caffiene at certain levels is banned - Again a day or less.

       

      Blood doping - Getting a blood transfusion (basically getting an extra pint) to carry more o2 - I would guess within a week or so it would have minimal imapact.

       

      EPO - I know little about.

       

      Once you have taken them, didn't they permanently alter your system? Like the muscles you built or the extra blood cells you produced, isn't the effect at least residually permanent? Wouldn't you still have the better or larger or more base that was built by that? Can you maintain that level then, even after stopping, by training?

      Curious as to how permanent an edge up can be.

      And yes, this has to do with Lance(and other athletes who have doped....sorry.....I know....)

       

      just curious is fair is ever really fair again after taking stuff.

      http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

      2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

       


      Ostrich runner

        This is purely anecdotal, but one friend of mine who played college baseball at a big state university described his experience with anabolics like this: he was almost good enough to get signed by the majors without them, but wasn't quite strong enough. He did a couple cycles and added 12 lbs of muscle. Once he was off of them, he kept about 5 or 6. According to him (and his stats would support this), he was then good enough to get a good contract. In the end, he got bone spurs in an elbow and hung it up.

        http://www.runningahead.com/groups/Indy/forum

          My intense training from age 16-22 (which was certainly performance enhancing) gave me certain skills that I was able to capitalize on years later in my running career, long after the proximal effects of that training had worn off.

          MrNamtor


          DON'T TREAD ON ME

            This is an excellent question.

             

            I know that for body building, your muscles will shrink once you stop taking them. This is because muscles only maintain their volume if you are doing the amount of work necessary to keep them the same size. If they are larger because of steroids, then the work you did to build/maintain them was NOT sufficient for that muscle volume, because it was the work you did + steroids that built them to that point, so when you remove the roids from the equation, the muscles get smaller.

             

            Probably the same for other types of drugs and their effects. Everything in the body is fluid because cells are never "permanently" created. Your physical condition is always based on some type of moving average.of inputs.


            Feeling the growl again

               

              If they are oxygen carrying related - I do not know how long, but pretty quickly your body wold come back into normal equalibrium.  It takes very little time for someone living at altitute to start losing their oxygen carrying advantage to us low landers.

               

              EPO - I know little about.

               

               

              I would need to look it up, but I think red blood cells have a lifespan of about 3 weeks.  No matter how you train, this is about when any benefits will certainly be gone.  It is not all that different from the altitude example mentioned, except you can get a much bigger boost and do it at sea level where you can train harder and recover better.

               

              EPO itself has a very short detection window.  At first it was under a week.  Once the dopers figured out micro-dosing, it came down tun under a day (from the reports I have read, if the testers know for sure they are keeping it to themselves).  This is why in cycling they went to a max allowable hematocrit, which is impossible to get naturally so if you are over it they know you doped even without detecting the dope.

               

              So with EPO no, the changes are not permanent.

              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

               


              Feeling the growl again

                My intense training from age 16-22 (which was certainly performance enhancing) gave me certain skills that I was able to capitalize on years later in my running career, long after the proximal effects of that training had worn off.

                 

                Very true...but muscle structure and cardiac output are very different than red blood cell count.  Adaptations degrade pretty much in the reverse order you can build them...things that take a long time to build -- like cardiac output -- take the longest to go away.  Things that can be conditioned quickly -- like red blood cell count or enzyme levels -- go away the quickest.

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 

                MrNamtor


                DON'T TREAD ON ME

                  This is purely anecdotal, but one friend of mine who played college baseball at a big state university described his experience with anabolics like this: he was almost good enough to get signed by the majors without them, but wasn't quite strong enough. He did a couple cycles and added 12 lbs of muscle. Once he was off of them, he kept about 5 or 6. According to him (and his stats would support this), he was then good enough to get a good contract. In the end, he got bone spurs in an elbow and hung it up.

                   

                  ok didnt see this, and it contradicts what i just said but it makes sense. Because if you can lets say add muscle so that you are strong enough to do more reps or more weight or whatever, then by virtue of that alone, you can keep some of the mass.

                   

                  Probably same is true of adding more blood cells or whatever bc by increasing vo2 capacity you allow yourself to run more and that can help you maintain or at least keep some of the enhanced level of fitness.

                     

                    Very true...but muscle structure and cardiac output are very different than red blood cell count.  Adaptations degrade pretty much in the reverse order you can build them...things that take a long time to build -- like cardiac output -- take the longest to go away.  Things that can be conditioned quickly -- like red blood cell count or enzyme levels -- go away the quickest.

                     

                    Right, but say you took EPO over a period of months or perhaps even years. Seems like this would allow you to do things in training that you couldn't -- which in turn would produce long lasting adaptations in muscle structure, cardiac output, and maybe most importantly the brain and neurological system that you wouldn't have achieved without the use of the drugs.


                    Feeling the growl again

                       

                      Right, but say you took EPO over a period of months or perhaps even years. Seems like this would allow you to do things in training that you couldn't -- which in turn would produce long lasting adaptations in muscle structure, cardiac output, and maybe most importantly the brain and neurological system that you wouldn't have achieved without the use of the drugs.

                       

                      Good point, I see the logic in the hypothesis.  Whether it is true or not, I don't know.

                       

                      Counter-intuitively, those who have doped with EPO and reported on the effects credit the improvement in recovery with their success more than anything else.  This sort of makes sense....there is plenty of (at least anecdotal, perhaps otherwise, I'd have to look for sure) that recovery is better at sea level than altitude.  But the people EPO doping that I've read accounts from mention the ability to do more workouts closer together...and at a greater intensity on the same recovery...more than anything else.

                      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                       


                      Labrat

                        Its a good question, and the answer is more or less 'it depends'.

                         

                        Steroids, used for bulking, those will diminish but not go away as long as keep up a level of hard work.

                        Steroids used as recovery aids, the increased base will allow you to push for quite a while after the drugs are flushed from your system

                         

                        EPO, well rbcs have a lifecycle of 100-120 ish days, but the body constantly fights to get the cell count back to the baseline. Its main use for most of Lance's career was for prepping blood bags and use the sudden surge of a re-infusion when it really mattered.

                         

                        There are long term consequences. I few months ago I was reading a ghost written article by a former cyclist. He basically has to take EPO now for the rest of his life, as the constant usage and high levels of usage atrophied his bodies ability to make its own. He may be able to be weaned off it over the course of a few years, but the docs are not hopeful.

                         

                        So yeah changes can be permanent, and not changes for the better.

                        5K  23:21*  (Vdot 41.53)   10/13/12

                        10K  46:35  (Vdot 43.47)  10/4/14

                        HM 1:42:41 (Vdot 43.72) 10/25/14

                        FM 4:24:33 (Vdot 33.59) 11/8/14

                        *Gun time, all others are chip time

                          Caffiene at certain levels is banned - Again a day or less.

                           

                           

                          I think there is no longer any ban for caffeine. It was removed from the prohibited substances list in 2004.

                             

                            I think there is no longer any ban for caffeine. It was removed from the prohibited substances list in 2004.

                             

                            It was still on the NCAA banned substance list above a certain amount in 2011.


                            Labrat

                               

                              I think there is no longer any ban for caffeine. It was removed from the prohibited substances list in 2004.

                               

                              Correct.

                               

                              It is monitored though, in case there is enough justification to put it back on.

                               

                              WADA says that at the levels needed to act as a significant stimulant in strength/sprint events, it actually is performance decreasing mainly due to the jitters.

                               

                              Endurance events it acts as an ergonomic at the levels typically seen in coffee/gels etc, buts its so widespread its not considered an issue.

                              5K  23:21*  (Vdot 41.53)   10/13/12

                              10K  46:35  (Vdot 43.47)  10/4/14

                              HM 1:42:41 (Vdot 43.72) 10/25/14

                              FM 4:24:33 (Vdot 33.59) 11/8/14

                              *Gun time, all others are chip time


                              Labrat

                                 

                                It was still on the NCAA banned substance list above a certain amount in 2011.

                                 

                                Just checked, it still is which was news to me. I don't really follow NCAA sports though.

                                 

                                The level though is approximately equivalent to taking 500 mg within an hour prior to testing.

                                 

                                Thats 10 mountain dews.  (or 5 standard strength caffeine pills).

                                5K  23:21*  (Vdot 41.53)   10/13/12

                                10K  46:35  (Vdot 43.47)  10/4/14

                                HM 1:42:41 (Vdot 43.72) 10/25/14

                                FM 4:24:33 (Vdot 33.59) 11/8/14

                                *Gun time, all others are chip time

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