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marathon as training run. Pace? Taper? (Read 606 times)

    OK some marathon training help needed if you please. I'm running the Lewis and Clark Marathon September 14th and the Bass Pro Shops Marathon on November 2nd. I'm treating the first as a training run for the second. Primarily, I'm trying to figure out how to taper for the first marathon. A little background. I've run 2 marathons and one 50K in the last two years. The first was a 3:38, 2nd was the Kansas City last October in 3:54, very hilly. The ultra was a trail run on a hot day so I can't figure much from that except my ability to suffer. This training plan has been rough for me. Over the last few months I've been lucky to average 25 miles a week but have managed a few 16-18 milers, a 20, and last weekend a 22, all at better than a 9:00 pace. This 22 mile run was a pretty solid 9:00 pace for the first 13 and gradually picked up the pace for the last 9. There were a couple of sub 8 miles in there and overall averaged an 8:40 for the whole run. I'm feeling pretty good about my goal of about a 3:50 marathon in September and then reassess for the Nov marathon, maybe shoot for the 3:30's. I don't wan tto suffer too much. I want to enjoy the whole thing. Sooo, if you've made it this far. What type of taper do you recommend for the first marathon? Right now I'm 4 weeks out and I'm thinking of getting in one 10 mile tempo at an 8:00 min pace and one more 20 mile run at about a 8:50 pace. All my other mid to long distance runs will be 6-10 miles of easy paces with a few 4-6 mile tempo runs. your thoughts? thanks


    1983

      If you are using it as training for the 2nd, then I wouldn't taper at all. Just use the marathon as your long run for the week. Especially given your low miles, just don't do any hard stuff the week prior to the marathon.
      Favorite quote: Stop your crying you little girl! 2011: Mt Washington, Washington Trails, Peaks Island, Pikes Peak.
      JakeKnight


        I'm with Slosh - I wouldn't taper a bit for the first one. If you're really going to run it for training. Alternatively, use a short taper and race it. Hard. If the two marathons are six weeks apart, that's what I'd do. Other opinions will vary wildly on that one. But in my experience, its not easy to really run a "training" run in a race. Maybe you have the discipline, but I'd undoubtedly run it faster than planned and turn it into a race. So why not race it? I'll answer my own question: if you don't get your mileage up and pretty quickly, you better be careful. So racing both might be unwise. If you'd been running 40-60 miles per week for the last several months, I'd race 'em both.

        E-mail: eric.fuller.mail@gmail.com
        -----------------------------


        Imminent Catastrophe

          No taper needed, maybe a couple of days off before and after. Sounds like you are comfortable a a 9:00 pace, so that's what I would do, make it a nice moderately hard training run, practice your pacing and fueling. MTA which Lewis and Clark Marathon? I think there's a few of those. I'd be interested to hear about it when you've done it.

          "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

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          "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

           

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            Take a 6 day taper. AKA- keep your long run the week before, but drop the mileage during the week. After the training marathon, recover for at least a week as if you had raced it. Maybe two to three weeks. See how you feel. I wouldn't do another 15-20 miler until at least October. I've often gotten injured in the month following a marathon by trying to do too much too quickly.
            kcam


              With the aim of a 3:30 marathon in early November you should have already built your mileage - start today. I wouldn't taper at all for the first - you should just train right through it and run it real slow (~9-9:15pace). Also, right now I wouldn't focus on tempo running but more on building weekly mileage which would mean pretty much all easy. Throw in a long run every week and maybe one unstructured session where you run just a little faster for some length of time.
                dpar - I'm running the L&C as a training run for the Chicago Marathon!! Whoo hoo!! I lived in Springfield up until a couple weeks ago (just moved...moving and training in the same year is NOT a good idea!)...have you run in Springfield before? You'll like the Bass Pro race - I sorely miss all the trails in Springfield. It's such a great running city. The thing I'm most looking forward to for the L&C half - the long-sleeve tech shirt we'll get!! Smile
                "If you run 100 miles a week, you can eat anything you want - Why? Because (a) you'll burn all the calories you consume, (b) you deserve it, and (c) you'll be injured soon and back on a restricted diet anyway." ~ Don Kardong
                xor


                  Perfesser, I'm pretty sure dpar means the MO L&C, 'cause it is on 9/14. I ran it last year. dpar - I agree with slosh et al... don't taper. It's a training run. One thing to consider... make it what McMillian calls a "fast finish" long run. Go out slow and make the last few miles the faster miles of your day. This has worked WONDERS for how I feel at the end of races. Also, it's a good thing to execute at L&C for two reasons: 1) the beginning of L&C is crazy crowded, but the last miles are not and 2) the whole race is mostly flattish, but the trail at the very end especially so. Incidentally, I found L&C to be slightly annoying for marathoners because the full feels like an add-on. As with many races that offer a concurrent half and full, there's a lot more people in the half. But at L&C, people will refer to the half as "the race". And in the full, you run the half's course... and then keep on going down the katy trail. As you approach your M12, spectators will be telling you "almost done!" All the spectators. Few people seemed to really 'get' that there's a full. Be ready to tune that stuff out. Oh yeah. If you are trying for 3:30s, you either need to have very good genetics or you need to get that mileage up ASAP. If I have a few weeks at your mileage, I'm happy to be around 4.

                   

                  xor


                    Here I am finishing L&C last year. Now, I'm not posting this to impress you with my pink or the goofy look on my face. Edited: picture doesn't want to work. Click this to see the picture. Note the lady that I'm passing. She's a half marathoner. As you finish the full, you'll be coming in with the half marathon walkers. Do you see that funny orange shape between my legs? Chick was carrying a large pumpkin! Swear to God.

                     

                      Srlopez - thanks for the info on L&C. I'm only doing the half...last year I had L&C on my list of full marathons I wanted to do until I read all the reviews on marathonguide. The responses pretty much summed up what you said - its' more of a half race, and I have the ever-present fear of being the last marathoner on the course. Smile So half, here I come!
                      "If you run 100 miles a week, you can eat anything you want - Why? Because (a) you'll burn all the calories you consume, (b) you deserve it, and (c) you'll be injured soon and back on a restricted diet anyway." ~ Don Kardong
                        Great advice everyone. I appreciate the help. The last two weeks I've been at 33 and 47 miles. The last two months were only in the 20's per week. Right now I'm always feeling that I'm one step away an injury. Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes.