Question about pace?

kooky2003

Now that was a bath...

posted: 11/14/2006 at 3:16 PM

Hi Everyone! I've been running off and on for about five years (for those that haven't seen my introduction) and I like to run at a fast pace in general. I decided 10 days ago to train to run for a Marathon next October and for a few shorter races between now and then. I discovered that if I slowed my pace I could run much easier (obvious I know but try telling that to an A-type personality without inciting feelings of failure) and I aim to run my longer races at a jogging pace (note to self - the phrase 'Jogging is for pussies' is eliminated from my vocabulary). I have done a few of my runs in the last week at a really slow pace (one was 15:49!) with about 11:30 being the average. Today I did a 4k run at 8:52 as I wanted to do some faster running and to be frank, there was a monsoon outside and I thought a shorter run wouldbe the chirpier option. My question is - when training for a quarter marathon (first one in January) how important (or irrelevant) is it to have runs at a faster pace in my training. Should I avoid them to prevent injury? Or should I include them as an aid to increasing my new generally slow pace of 11:30? Claire xxx

jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"

Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.

Wingz

posted: 11/14/2006 at 3:26 PM
modified: 11/14/2006 at 3:27 PM

Hey, Claire! Since your goal race is so far off, my opinion is that you'd be better off saving anything fast for later on and just concentrating on building a good, solid base of miles now and making consistent, injury-free training your goal now. Doesn't that plan you're following say something about making all your runs "easy" at this point? Janell

Roads were made for journeys...

Scout7

CPT Curmudgeon

posted: 11/14/2006 at 3:39 PM

Base miles base miles base miles. You should not even contemplate speed work until A) You've run steadily for about a year, or B) You are not coming off an injury. That being said, I said SPEED work. Not fast running. I think that you need to find out what your threshold is (the pace that you feel you can maintain forever), and then run a little slower than that. If it helps, get a HRM, and use a reliable and proven method for determining your training zones (go here: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/determinezones.html) If no HRM, you need to really listen to your body. On each and every run, you should finish pleasantly tired, not exhausted, but certainly not fresh. Doing this will build your aerobic base, and that is the key to any distance endurance event. For a little more insight, check out the thread about us trying to get someone faster: http://www.runningahead.com/frm_topic.aspx?id=8eb63b08a4f742578f9775307ad40e4e

kooky2003

Now that was a bath...

posted: 11/14/2006 at 4:39 PM

Quote - Doesn't that plan you're following say something about making all your runs "easy" at this point? Well the quarter marathon program that I am following at the moment for the 12k in Jan actually had me penciled in for a 20 min run (as opposed to a jog) so I was sort of playing the game by the rules. That said I am desperately close to screwing with my schedule as I am finding the runs too easy at the moment. I guess I need to accept that a training plan is a 'training plan' when it is followed and a 'pointless waste of paper' when it is ignored. I just have to say at this point that I love the map tool! It's just peachy. Who needs a darned pedometer when you've got one of those things available. This is a fantastic site and I am so pleased to have found it. You all bring so much knowledge to my running table and I am really greatful for that. Quote - I think that you need to find out what your threshold is (the pace that you feel you can maintain forever) Great advice. I guess I am playing with pace a bit at the moment as it's not something that I had considered much before. I do know that the 11:30 pace was very easy over a 5km distance. I am doing a longer run this weekend (not too long - about 8km) and I guess i'll try and maintain that slower pace and see how I fare. I'll consider looking at a HRM too! If you could see my running gear you would probably laugh! Seriously - my shoes are a retro pair of Addidas running trainers, I reckon i've had them six years and I've used them for a lot more than running! I've promised myself a new pair after Christmas, i'll try and hit the sales and save some bucks. An HRM might be a nice addition, but if not, I am sure that i'll get better in tune with my body over the coming months. Thanks for the advice! Claire xxx

jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"

Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.

Pron8r

posted: 11/14/2006 at 4:40 PM
modified: 11/14/2006 at 4:42 PM

Quote from Scout7 on 11/14/2006 at 3:39 PM:

Base miles base miles base miles. You should not even contemplate speed work until A) You've run steadily for about a year, or B) You are not coming off an injury. That being said, I said SPEED work. Not fast running. I think that you need to find out what your threshold is (the pace that you feel you can maintain forever), and then run a little slower than that. If it helps, get a HRM, and use a reliable and proven method for determining your training zones (go here: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/determinezones.html) If no HRM, you need to really listen to your body. On each and every run, you should finish pleasantly tired, not exhausted, but certainly not fresh. Doing this will build your aerobic base, and that is the key to any distance endurance event. For a little more insight, check out the thread about us trying to get someone faster: http://www.runningahead.com/frm_topic.aspx?id=8eb63b08a4f742578f9775307ad40e4e

I agree--get the base mileage down first. Here's a formula for how it works (yes, I just made it up; yes, there's probably a better formula; no, I don't know what it is) : {[(Too fast and/or too far) + too soon]age as %}/base mileage = likelihood of injury Meaning that if you run too fast too soon, or too far too soon, or too far too fast too soon, you run the risk of injury. As you get older, the chance of incurring injury increases. The more base mileage you have, your risk of injury decreases. Ignore the forumula, pay the price. Oh--and get some new shoes. Soon. The ones you have, regardless of mileage, have broken down.

My Masters (>50) Race PR's: 5K - 20:17 10K - 42:36 HM - 1:31:22 Marathon - 3:20:48

Scout7

CPT Curmudgeon

posted: 11/14/2006 at 4:47 PM

Ok, first thing.....Get thee to a running-specific shop, and get fitted for a good pair of shoes. Even if you only buy the first pair from them, it is WELL worth the money on a proper fitting and a decent pair of shoes (so at least you know what to buy later on), and way better than trips to the doc or sports med or PT person (like my coworkers all seem to be dealing with right now....). After that, yeah, I can understand the playing with the pace thing. I still do it to some extent or another, and I really should know where I'm at. When I'm running, I try not to look at my watch. I just run what feels good. Your body will let you know when you're pushing too hard, and you'll know when things are way too easy. Stick with it, though, and really pay attention to all the different parts of your body before, during, and after each run. It helps you gauge how hard you're really pushing it.

JakeKnight

posted: 11/14/2006 at 5:12 PM

Here - let me cut through all of the above silliness and give you a definitive, guaranteed to be right answer. I reputedly know all - so surely I know this. Wink

Let's check the experts for a nice, clear answer on the question of pace:

"You really can't go too slow on long runs ... because there are no drawbacks to running them slowly. Running them too fast, however, can compromise your recovery time and raise your injury risk." ~ Olympian Jeff Galloway

"I've always felt that long, slow distance produces long, slow runners." ~ Olympian Sebastian Coe

There you go. Isn't running fun? Big grin

Here's my answer (me - not an Olympian. Yet.): Quit thinking about it so much and go run. Have fun, make it hard enough to be interesting but gentle enough to be invigorating. When you feel like picking up the pace, go for it. Smiling all the way. You'll be fast enough, soon enough. And then you can join the rest of the idiots arguing at length over the comparative advantages of 8x400 at MP-30 versus 4x800 Yassos versus 10-k pace tempo runs w/8x20 second strides at VO2 max blah blah zzzzzz .... or something like that. Smile

Enjoy! Now you'll have to excuse me while I engage in some delightful hypocrisy and go check my own thread to see if I should be running 4 days per week w/2 tempo runs at 5-k pace versus 6-days per week with alternating long runs at MP +1:00 with alternating heelkick drills on opposite weekend and national holidays and when I should start doing intervals/strides and why my lactate just thresholded into my glycogen reserves ... blah blah zzzzzz .... or something like that.

E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
-----------------------------

Scout7

CPT Curmudgeon

posted: 11/15/2006 at 8:10 AM

Quote from JakeKnight on 11/14/2006 at 5:12 PM:

Now you'll have to excuse me while I engage in some delightful hypocrisy and go check my own thread to see if I should be running 4 days per week w/2 tempo runs at 5-k pace versus 6-days per week with alternating long runs at MP +1:00 with alternating heelkick drills on opposite weekend and national holidays and when I should start doing intervals/strides and why my lactate just thresholded into my glycogen reserves ... blah blah zzzzzz .... or something like that.

I told you before. You should be running only on days that end in "y". Now....Less posting.....More running.

kooky2003

Now that was a bath...

posted: 11/15/2006 at 1:04 PM

I told you before. You should be running only on days that end in "y". I actually had to think about that one! You know I am now feeling bad for my feet (and the rest of my body too) but I really want to wait for the post-Christmas sales before buying my running shoes. It's just a financial reason. We certainly aren't poor but I have that Mommy thing of not wasting money on myself I suppose. I also felt that I should show a real commitment to running and know that I was in this for the long haul before spending the dollars. Seriously - Forest gump dressed better than me on a run. Jake & Pron8r - great advice. I'll get there! So much to learn it seems. Claire xxx Claire xxx

jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"

Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.

Scout7

CPT Curmudgeon

posted: 11/15/2006 at 2:02 PM

Quote from kooky2003 on 11/15/2006 at 1:04 PM:

I also felt that I should show a real commitment to running and know that I was in this for the long haul before spending the dollars. Seriously - Forest gump dressed better than me on a run.

Pfffft.....I wear an old pair of cotton Army-issued PT shorts. Most of that stuff is marketing. I will splurge on shoes, though. That's it.

JakeKnight

posted: 11/15/2006 at 2:42 PM
modified: 11/15/2006 at 2:44 PM

Quote from Scout7 on 11/15/2006 at 2:02 PM:

Pfffft.....I wear an old pair of cotton Army-issued PT shorts. Most of that stuff is marketing. I will splurge on shoes, though. That's it.

Pfffft right back at you. Here we have a classic example of the problem with a-teamers giving c-teamers advice. So let me clue you in: For those of you who actually run fast, such accessories as high-speed low-drag running shades, friction-less titanium-thread technical running shorts, and menacingly intimidating day-glo running hats may not seem as important ... but see, for those of us who aren't actually, well, you know, "fast" as it were, we kind of like *looking* fast. Trust me on this: at the starting line, I look fast. You'd fear me. You'd quake in your Asics. And then ... the gun would go off. Fear would become mirth. And you'd likely have several minutes to several hours worth of time to giggle, while waiting for me at the finish line. But for a minute there ... you'd think I was fast. Us c-teamers enjoy the illusion. Don't take it from us. It's all we have. Well, that and credit card debt accumulated by purchasing the latest in high-tech run gear ... It's all about the dream, man. It's the dream. Don't wake me. I promise that once I qualify for Boston, I'll start running in a burlap sack and some lederhosen. ------------------------------------------ Modified to add one "f" to "pfffft." I apparently misspelled it.

E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
-----------------------------

Scout7

CPT Curmudgeon

posted: 11/15/2006 at 2:49 PM

Quote from JakeKnight on 11/15/2006 at 2:42 PM:

You'd quake in your Asics.

I wear Brooks. Adidas for trails. Nikes for some races. Asics make my feet pronate. Besides, I want her to get better shoes. It'll keep her running better. Oh, also, go for the kilt and no shirt look at boston. Look better than the leiderhosen.

Ann-V

posted: 11/15/2006 at 5:13 PM

Quote from kooky2003 on 11/15/2006 at 1:04 PM:

I have that Mommy thing of not wasting money on myself I suppose. I also felt that I should show a real commitment to running and know that I was in this for the long haul before spending the dollars.

On the one hand, I think I am just a mommy like you.... But I already bought a decent pair of running shoes even before my first run... I thought it was better to spent those € there, than to give them to a doctor when I would have damaged my poor right knee (my weak spot). I want to run, and I have enjoyed (almost) every run since I started only 10 weeks ago... but in the first place, I want to stay injury-free for as long as I can. (I'm 'already' 44, and I don't want to delay my - slow, very slow - progress by injuries, so I'm very careful, and I wear good shoes!) Yes, I'd rather spend those € for my child... but I'd rather spend them for myself, then paying a doctor.

Running in Belgium
Ann

2012-goals: stay injury-free, build a stable aerobic base, transition to running barefoot run barefoot as long as temperatures allow it

Run more km than I did in 2010 (45) 2009 (95) 2007 (148) 2006 (222) 2008 (234) 2011 (best year yet: 318 km)

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SurfNRun

Prophet!

posted: 11/16/2006 at 7:14 PM

sometimes getting the last year's model of a shoes that fits you can save you about half the price of the current model...doesn't hurt to check specialty running stores...i noticed that running stores actually have better deals than big box stores for proper running shoes. my 2 kiwi cents... steve

zoom-zoom

Fanatic #3965

posted: 11/16/2006 at 7:28 PM

Quote from Scout7 on 11/15/2006 at 2:49 PM:

Oh, also, go for the kilt and no shirt look at boston. Look better than the leiderhosen.

Ohhhh...yes....

What I would have given to get my hubby to wear a kilt for our wedding (we did do red tartan vests for the guys). He lived in Scotland for a year and still wouldn't do it. But he has WAY nicer legs than I do and would definitely do a kilt justice.

Kirsten

'07: 1324.5 | '08: 1561 | '09: 1810.9 run ~ 208.7 bike | '10: 1,000.3 run ~ 3513.5 bike | '11: 710.3 run ~ 4157.9 bike '12: 659.9 run ~ 3365.6 bike (100% benched by ortho last 4.5 weeks while in long-arm cast)

'13 Goals:

• DON'T BREAK ANYTHING!!!

• get within 5#s of 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)

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• punch Type 1 in the junk

Question about pace? (Read 994 times)

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