Tempo and "Long Run" combined? (Read 336 times)

Not sure if 3 workouts per week is a good idea.  Stock answer is to alternate weekly between the hill session and intervals, although 4-5 X 400 at 5k pace may not be such a big workout that you can't do both.

I have a lot of respect for spaniel and milktruck, so nothing to add here, except that your approach is one that is commonly used by Tinman in his training, which I followed faithfully one year and had all kinds of PR's. Basically what Tinman says is that instead of doing 3 key workouts per week, say LR, track and tempo, you do just two. However, all your speed is done within those two runs, e.g., a 14 mile "wave" run on the weekend, where alternating miles are done at MP or HMP and the others are easy.  Then perhaps tempo during the week inside of a medium long run, as you have suggested.

Two key workouts per week allows for better recovery, while still stressing the anaerobic system.  I like your idea a lot.  You know you will improve at a better rate however, simply by upping your miles, but I don't know what your breakdown point is.  For the record, I am 68 and I can tolerate 35 mpw, and that's about it.  Good luck.  Spareribs

Sorry if I made this confusing.

I am the OP and you (and others) really did address my main question - which was regarding including my tempo, and what for me constitutes a "long run" of between 8 and 10 (and maybe in a month or so - 12) miles.

 

The second part was just me wondering what other quality workouts it is reasonable to incorporate on a weekly basis.  And right now, my longest racing distance will be 10K, but more leaning toward 5K.  I only mentioned the HM pace as what I would use as my tempo pace in the long run.

Agree with many others in regards to what you're calling your long run and incorporating some workout into it.  Ideally for 5k/10k training, one would incorporate workouts that cover speed, lactate threshold, economy, VO2 max work and a long run.  With the # days and mileage your doing, I'd suggest that you target a key workout early in the week and then a longer effort later in the week.  For the key workout days, the following are all good options:

1.  Progression run - warmup, 4-6 mile progression run with the last mile at your current 10 mile race pace.  Start at what your last mile should be and and add 10 sec per mile to get to your starting mile.  If your current 10 mile race pace is 7:25, a 4 mile progression run would be as follows: warmup, 4-6 x strides, 7:55-7:45-7:35-7:25, cooldown.

2.  Tempo run - warmup, 6-8 mile tempo at about 20-25 sec/mile slower than current 10k fitness, cooldown.  Do 4-6 x strides before and after.

3.  Building/Hill run - warmup, 4 miles of 0.25 mi hill repeats (0.25 mi at INCLINE, 0.25 mi at flat or decline), 1 x maintenance mile (5k race pace), cooldown.

4.  Fartlek run - warmup, 4-6 x strides, fartlek run, cooldown.  Two versions I like are as follows: In minutes with 1/2 as recovery jog- 10-8-6-4-2 (10-8-6 at 10k pace, 4-2 at 5k pace) or 1-1-2-2-3-4-3-2-2-1-1 (a ladder fartlek).  All depends on how many miles your doing and much time you have.

I've rotated between these as a key workout for the week with a long run on the weekend.  For the long run, target 95-100 min with fartlek surges of 30 sec - 5 min at a time.  Do at least full time recovery in between.  Two other options is to do a fast finish long run or a steady building long run.  A fast finish long run would have you do the last couple of miles at ~10k pace to tempo pace and a steady building long run is sort of a long progression run where you keep a steady pace down to your tempo/lactate threshold pace.

So, if you do a key workout and a long run in a week, you would follow those two workout with easy recovery jogs the day after.  Any other running outside of those four days would then be easy aerobic running with strides (6 x 100) afterwards.

Good luck!

 

Agree with many others in regards to what you're calling your long run and incorporating some workout into it.  Ideally for 5k/10k training, one would incorporate workouts that cover speed, lactate threshold, economy, VO2 max work and a long run.  With the # days and mileage your doing, I'd suggest that you target a key workout early in the week and then a longer effort later in the week.  For the key workout days, the following are all good options:

 

1.  Progression run - warmup, 4-6 mile progression run with the last mile at your current 10 mile race pace.  Start at what your last mile should be and and add 10 sec per mile to get to your starting mile.  If your current 10 mile race pace is 7:25, a 4 mile progression run would be as follows: warmup, 4-6 x strides, 7:55-7:45-7:35-7:25, cooldown.

2.  Tempo run - warmup, 6-8 mile tempo at about 20-25 sec/mile slower than current 10k fitness, cooldown.  Do 4-6 x strides before and after.

3.  Building/Hill run - warmup, 4 miles of 0.25 mi hill repeats (0.25 mi at INCLINE, 0.25 mi at flat or decline), 1 x maintenance mile (5k race pace), cooldown.

4.  Fartlek run - warmup, 4-6 x strides, fartlek run, cooldown.  Two versions I like are as follows: In minutes with 1/2 as recovery jog- 10-8-6-4-2 (10-8-6 at 10k pace, 4-2 at 5k pace) or 1-1-2-2-3-4-3-2-2-1-1 (a ladder fartlek).  All depends on how many miles your doing and much time you have.

 

I've rotated between these as a key workout for the week with a long run on the weekend.  For the long run, target 95-100 min with fartlek surges of 30 sec - 5 min at a time.  Do at least full time recovery in between.  Two other options is to do a fast finish long run or a steady building long run.  A fast finish long run would have you do the last couple of miles at ~10k pace to tempo pace and a steady building long run is sort of a long progression run where you keep a steady pace down to your tempo/lactate threshold pace.

 

So, if you do a key workout and a long run in a week, you would follow those two workout with easy recovery jogs the day after.  Any other running outside of those four days would then be easy aerobic running with strides (6 x 100) afterwards.

 

Good luck!

Maybe I'd one day try and do these workouts, but 6-8 miles at anywhere near 10k pace sounds almost impossible to me. I can rarely hit 2 miles at that pace, but then again I don't do workouts and maybe I should and this won't be so tough.

At my theoretical equivalent race paces.

10K  + 20 sec/mile is HM pace.

*gulp*

Maybe I'd one day try and do these workouts, but 6-8 miles at anywhere near 10k pace sounds almost impossible to me. I can rarely hit 2 miles at that pace, but then again I don't do workouts and maybe I should and this won't be so tough.

Remember, it's 20-25 seconds slower per mile than your CURRENT 10k pace, which is around half marathon pace, NOT your PR half marathon pace.  It all depends on where one is at with mileage and their training.  If overall weekly mileage is lower, then it would be appropriate to keep the tempo's at 4 mile - 10k distances.  If building to HM or greater, then it's important to build up to 6-8 miles or even 10 miles for a tempo.  Tempo's aren't time trials, so if you're honest with where your current fitness is, you should be able to hold it together and keep the miles consistent throughout.

The reason the world record has dropped is because runners are no longer dawdling along doing "LSD" long runs.

This quote says it all:  “What does a 2-hour easy run have to do with the marathon? Nothing.”

- Renato Canova

The 2 runs have different purposes-goals-objectives-stresses-recovery. At a very simplistic level the long run is about building up your body's 'infrastructure', and a tempo run about building aerobic capacity for speed over distance.

 

Of course, there's nothing wrong in any way with running in any structure you want.  If you want the benefit of long-slow-distance, then you need to run LSD. If you want the benefit of tempo -- you need to run tempo.

 

Personally, I do the workout your describing every other weekend as a half marathon workout-- a couple miles easy, then tempo for 6-8, then a slower finish. I call it a tempo workout.

_{Squarely in the "for what its worth" column, I did my longish run yesterday (7 miles) with the three miles in the middle at what McMillan puts my half marathon pace based on my last 5K.  Effort was medium hard and definitely did not feel I could hold that for 10 more miles, but all in all feel it was a good workout.  Earlier in the week did 5 X 400 at  a little faster than current 5K pace, so a good week back on the trail to full recovery.}