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Race plans - 10k, 5k then HM (Read 2158 times)

    Thanks for the input guys.

     

    I knew I was going out too fast, but I really didn't know what i was capable of.  Jeff mentioned in the "what does race pace feel like" thread that I might be capable of sub 22:00 and I figured I would never know unless I tried it.  I actually didn't feel too bad at the end of the first mile and was still clicking along pretty good through about 1.5 miles.  Started hurting and slowing down after that, still was under 7:20 avg pace at the end of 2 miles, but I really was sucking air on mile 3.  Thought about walking to try to catch my breath, but just kept going as hard as I could go.  Tried to pick it up at the last 100 yards, but just couldn't get it done.

     

    I ended up 63rd out of 376 finishers in the 5k (there were 263 in the 10k on the same course) and 1st out of 24 in the fat boy division.  The field had some pretty slow movers in it.  They had some trouble with the time and my official time is now showing at 24:06 although the clock showed 24:00 when I crossed the line.  I didn't look at my phone when I crossed the line so no idea which would be correct so I guess I have to go with the official posted time.

     

    I'm thinking of running another 5k in two weeks.  That wouldn't be a smart move if my half marathon coming up in a month was a big goal race, but I'm not super focused on running a great time on it.  It is a tough course and a small field and I think it would be rough to really try to push it and I think I could go sub 2 hours pretty easily right now unless something went wrong. 

     

    If I am going to run the 5k in two weeks any recommendations for workouts the next two weeks?  I need to get a long run in this weekend for the half marathon coming up, and my wife thinks I should do some mile repeats in at 5k goal race pace.  I think a slower tempo run would be good for half marathon training and 5k training so that sounds like a plan too.

     

    For sure I will not go out as fast, I'm thinking starting at a 7:25 pace and try to negative split it a little.

    Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

      The good thing about 5k is that it's short enough that you can race them often. You can find the right pace by trial and error. Pick a time that you think you should be able to run... go out at that pace and stick at it. If you manage that time, then next time take 15 seconds off it and repeat. Eventually you'll find what you're actually capable of at a given level of fitness. If you fail then start out at a more conservative pace.

       

      Once you find that time the challenge becomes figuring out how to train to improve your fitness so that you can continue to bring the time down.

        I think you're capable of a 23 minute 5k right now, you just need some practice racing them. If 7:25 is your 5k pace then going out in 6:55 is complete suicide.  

        Race day adrenaline makes that 6:55 pace feel like 7:30 pace which is where you'd likely need to be if targeting 23:00.  You were likely even faster than that 6:55 if you had to dodge other folks.

         

        I'd practice running that pace for 200 m intervals. That is a short enough interval that you'd want to run it much faster (and probably should, if the workout purpose is not diaing into the pace), see if you can hit those in no faster than 52-55 sec

          Okay.  I guess my workout today confirms that I should be able to run close to a 23:00 5K and I just ran a bad race and I think the antihistamines didn't help things either.

           

          Workout today was supposed to be a 1 mile warmup then 4 miles of an increasing pace Tempo with splits of 8:15, 8:05, 7:55 and 7:45 then a one mile cooldown.

           

          Warm and sunny. 80 degrees, 20% humidity, wind NE at 9 mph.

           

          I bought a new HRM today and it wasn't working at the start so I had to stop and re-pair it after the first mile warmup so that doesn't show on the splits, but it was a 1 mile warmup at a 9:38 pace.  I got the HRM working very quickly and changed the workout to just start with the Tempo portion right off the bat.  When I was running them I felt like I got close, but was a little fast on the first couple miles. Tied my shoe on mile 2, but still made my split. Last mile was tough to make the 7:45, but I thought I did.  The way my phone works it tells me my split pace at .25 mile increments as I go through that interval, but when it gets to the mile mark it tells me to start the next interval but doesn't give me the final split for the one I just ran so I just try to run the same pace for the last .25 miles of the interval that I do for the first .75 miles.  I guess I must speed up a little on the last .25 miles though because my final splits all came in faster than I was expecting.

           

          Here's my splits.

           

          Splits (GPS Interval)
           TypeDistance Split settingsDurationTotal DurationPaceAvg HRMax HRNotes
          1 Manual 1 mi 8:01.72 8:01.72 8:02 154 164  
          2 Manual 1 mi 7:48.77 15:50.49 7:49 169 176  
          3 Manual 1 mi 7:37.77 23:28.26 7:38 176 182  
          4 Manual 1 mi 7:33.5 31:01.76 7:34 183 187  
          5 Manual 1 mi 9:48.59 40:50.35 9:49 162 187  
          6 Manual 0.23 mi 2:10.64 43:00.99 9:28 167 171

           

          Those last 3 miles of the Tempo would have put me in at 30 seconds slower than the first 3 miles that I ran in my race Saturday, and that was after I had already run an 8 minute mile on the first part of the Tempo.  And I was feeling WAY better at the end of those 3 miles than I was at the end of the first 3 miles of my race!  This was 80 degrees and sunny vs. 66 degrees during the race.  I was working for that last mile, but no where near the effort I was putting in during the race.  My max HR is 194 so I was getting close there at the end of mile 4, but I didn't get into the 180's until right at the end of the 3rd mile of the Tempo.

           

          Oh well.  I pushed this a little faster than I should of, but I really wasn't trying to those first couple miles.  I felt really good through the first 3 and just started getting a little uncomfortable on the 4th mile, not feeling like I wanted to walk or anything like that.  I couldn't have kept that pace for another mile, but I could have kept it up for another 1/2 mile probably, maybe a little more.

           

          I really think I have the sub 23:00 in me, the only thing that I'm not taking into account is that my GPS is showing a little over the actual mileage so my avg pace is probably a little off.  On a race with a lot of turns like the one on Saturday it is even more pronounced.  I think the race I'm going to run next will be a fairly straight out and back so hopefully my GPS will match up pretty close to the actual distance.

           

          Oh well.  Long run on Saturday probably isn't going to help my 5K the next Saturday, but i need to get it in for my Half Marathon coming up, but I don't think it will affect me too much.  Not sure if I should skip any speedwork the week of the race and stick to all easy runs or if I can get some speedwork in on the Tuesday before the race on Saturday.

           

          Any thoughts?  Thanks, Nathan

          Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

            How often to you run without your phone and HRM? I still think you have way too much unimportant data and not enough of the important data that comes from that incredibly sensitive and precise instrument known as your body.

             

            I think you should map out a 3 mile course somewhere, do a 15 minute warmup of easy running, run a 3 mile tempo with no external feedback, then do a 15 minute cooldown. Wear a $30 timex stopwatch, hit the lap timer at the start of your 3 miles and again at the end, don't look at it in between.

             

            During the 3 miles focus on feeling fast but controlled. Remind yourself often that you are running 3 miles but the goal is to finish those 3 miles feeling like you could go another mile at that pace if you had to. Try not to cheat and get into a race effort--when you hit 3 miles you should be able to hit the lap timer and then slow to an easy pace and go right into your cooldown. Your breathing should be heavy but not out of control (no urge to stop and put your hands on your knees, etc.) and you should be able to return to "normal" breathing after 1-2 minutes of easy paced running.

             

            It might not go well the first time. You may have to try it a few times to get the hang of it. You'll need a couple of easy days in between tries so it may take a few weeks before you get the hang of it.

             

            This is a good workout, to be sure, but it's also how you learn to control effort, which is what you need to learn to race well. Racing is a max effort. Effort is not the same thing as heart rate or pace. Heart rate and pace are indicators that can help approximate a level of effort, but they are not effort.

             

            Oh, and Long runs definitely help your 5k.

            Runners run.

              Thanks for the input. 

               

              I actually just finished going 3 weeks without my HRM.  (My old one quit working and I just now broke down and bought another).  What I found myself starting to do was run my easy runs too fast.  Not terribly too fast, but creeping up on it.  I ran a 10 miler weekend before last with hills and ended up at a 9:17 avg pace.  Probably not so fast it affected anything, but getting close, especially with the hills. For comparison, now that I have my HRM working again I ran 6 miles this morning on a very nice cool morning and ended up with a 10:11 avg pace at 71% Max HR.  (I was shooting for 70%, but I ran it just a tiny bit too fast, I'm actually calculating my number right now, my max HR is 194 X .70 = 136 is my target HR on my easy runs, this also matches my MAF rate).   I do really value the objective input that a HRM gives me, I don't trust my sensitive instrument called a body, because my mind will usually tell me whatever I think I want to hear.  Yeah, this feels easy, sure this is easy, maybe you should pick it up a little....

               

              I have run with my phone set to not give audio cues before and just looked at everything after the run was over.  It was interesting, but not a life changing experience or anything.  I spend a lot more time looking at the numbers and paying attention to them after the fact than during my run.  On the tempo I just ran yesterday I had no goals on what my HR should be or anything, I was just trying to make those splits.

               

              I've really only been doing speedwork for two months now after a summer of base building so I think I'm still seeing some improvement.

               

              I know long runs are good for a 5K, I just wasn't sure if a 12 mile run a week before a 5K race was a good idea.  Thats a pretty normal long run for me and I plan on running it easy so I think it will be okay, but I was planning on having some hills in there again.  I'm thinking I'll end up with a 10:00+ avg pace on it so it should be a very easy run. 

               

              Any input on a speed workout on Tuesday before the race on Saturday?  Should I do one or just get in some easy miles?  Would that 3 mile effort based run with my phone set not to give audio cues be a good one?  I have several 3 mile courses I could run so I wouldn't need to rely on my GPS.  When my phone is on the armband I don't look at it, I just rely on the audio cues.  On these Tempo runs I've been having it set to give me audio cues every .25 miles, but I generally have it set for every .5 miles.

               

              When it all comes down to it, I don't know why I'm so focused on getting what I consider a good time on this 5K.  Whatever time I post up is slow compared to about 90% of the folks on this forum. But that's one very neat thing about running.  I'm not racing against anyone else right now, I'm racing against myself.  Winning the Clydesdale division in that 5K was nice, but I would have been happier going sub 23:00 and finishing 3rd! ;-) 

              Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

              Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                 

                Any input on a speed workout on Tuesday before the race on Saturday? 

                 

                Big fan of this prerace work out on a Tues. 

                 

                4 X 800m at 10K effort. 90 sec rest between. Follow that up with 4 X 200m at 800m-1mile pace.  Great prerace peak work out to keep yor legs going but not beat you up.  The rest of the week should be easy miles - do some striders on Friday the day before race.

                Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

                  Got a good long run in this weekend and set a PR for me with 42.5 miles for the week.

                   

                  Workouts this week right now are:

                   

                  Today = 4 miles easy.

                   

                  Tuesday = TChuck's workout above, modified slightly so I can do the intervals on my phone.  4 X 800m at 8:00 pace with 250m recoveries then 4 X 250m at 7:00 pace with 250m recoveries.  I might wear a watch so I can try to check my intervals a little better instead of having to wait until the workout is over before seeing how fast I ended up running them.

                   

                  Wednesday = 6 miles easy.

                   

                  Thursday = 4 miles easy.

                   

                  Friday = I had been taking the day before off, should I run just a couple miles on Friday with some strides?

                   

                  Saturday = Race Day - 10:30 am start instead of an early start like usual.  Probably eat a normal breakfast around 7:00 or so, just stay away from any dairy (I had a bad race one time after eating 2 bowls of cereal with milk before the race).  For sure a mile or so warmup with some strides, maybe 1/2 mile warmup, 1/2 mile at 8:00 pace, 1/2 mile cool down that finished about 15 minutes before the race starts.  Forecast is for cool temperatures right now.  (50ish for a high that day).   What do you guys think about warming up before the race? Just 1 mile easy with strides or throw a 10K pace Tempo in there for 1/2 mile in the middle?

                   

                  Any thoughts?

                   

                  Thanks, Nathan

                  Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                  Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                    Did TChuck's workout today after work.

                     

                    Warm one out there today! 86 degrees, 21% humidity, wind SSW at 15 mph. Intervals in the park by the office. Supposed to be 4 x 800m at 8:00 pace with 250m recoveries followed by 4 x 250m at 7:00 pace with 250m recoveries. Based on audio cues I think I ran the 800's too fast and the 250's too slow, but I never know until I check it after the fact. Overall 8:39 avg pace counting warmup and cooldown. 158 avg HR. Seemed like a good workout anyway.

                     

                    Looking at the numbers after the fact I did run the 800's a little too fast, but the 250's were good except the last one and no idea what happened there. Didn't intentionally slow that one down, but I was running it uphill a little and into the wind so I guess that affected it a little?  I didn't feel like I was struggling on it or anything.  Maybe the way the GPS started or stopped that interval was off a little.  Also on those short splits that may would have only been about a 6 or 7 second difference in the actual splits but that extends out to a big difference for the pace per mile. The Runningahead won't make these splits with the mix of miles and km's so this is from the runkeeper app.

                     

                    Intervals Pace (min/mi) Elevation (ft)
                    0.50 mi (slow) 9:30 -6
                    0.50 mi (fast) 7:54 -2
                    0.16 mi (slow) 9:27 3
                    0.50 mi (fast) 7:46 -2
                    0.16 mi (slow) 9:38 -1
                    0.50 mi (fast) 7:28 3
                    0.16 mi (slow) 9:48 -1
                    0.50 mi (fast) 7:47 -1
                    0.50 mi (slow) 9:35 -0
                    0.16 mi (fast) 7:04 -1
                    0.16 mi (slow) 9:35 3
                    0.16 mi (fast) 7:05 -1
                    0.16 mi (slow) 10:14 -1
                    0.16 mi (fast) 6:56 -1
                    0.16 mi (slow) 9:44 0
                    0.16 mi (fast) 7:31 5
                    0.50 mi (slow) 10:01 -3
                    0.50 mi (slow) 10:08 6

                     

                    Felt like a good workout, a sharpening, not a beating.  My HR ended up at 158 for an average and only got up to 181 for a max at the end of the 3rd 250m interval which makes sense because that was my fastest one.  I only hit 178 on my 4th 250m interval so that does tell me I wasn't putting out as much effort on it as I thought since it should have normally been up a little higher than the 3rd interval if I was putting out the same effort.  My recoveries seemed good, my HR was dipping down into the 140's on the first couple and then in the 150's on the rest.

                     

                    Just a few more easy runs on the agenda the rest of the week.  Still would appreciate any recommendations on Friday whether to do a couple easy miles with strides or take it completely off and then on Saturday before the race whether to just jog a easy 1.5 miles or throw a 1/2 mile in there at 10K race pace.

                     

                    Thanks, Nathan

                    Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                      Why not rest or go very very easy on Thur. Save Friday for your w/u... meaning run easy with strides on Friday.On race day you could do a very light w/u with no strides.

                      Dont call it a comeback

                        Why not rest or go very very easy on Thur. Save Friday for your w/u... meaning run easy with strides on Friday.On race day you could do a very light w/u with no strides.

                         

                        I have no clue.  I've read about a dozen articles on tapering for a 5K and they have gone from no need to taper at all, to 100% complete rest for 3 days before and everything in between.

                         

                        I know I don't want to do any hard workouts the couple days before the race, but was thinking 3 or 4 easy miles today and a couple easy miles tomorrow wouldn't affect things much one way or the other and I do have a half marathon coming up in 2 weeks so I don't want to completely quit running. 

                         

                        On race day I've had the same suggestions from no warmup, just some dynamic streching to running a 1/2 mile warmup then 1/2 mile at near race pace and then a 1/2 mile cooldown finishing just 10 minutes before the start of the race.  I did that last bit (the 1/2 mile warmup, 1/2 mile at near race pace and then 1/2 mile cooldown) on my 10K a couple months ago and beat my goal time handily, but I did it a few weeks ago for my 5K and blew up although I did a bunch of other things wrong that race too.

                         

                        I think I'm going to do 3 miles easy on the treadmill tonight so no strides and then play it by ear on what's going on tomorrow.  If I can fit in a couple easy miles then I'm going to do them, if not, I will call it a rest day.  Leaning toward just a mile or so warmup with maybe a few strides on race day.

                        Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                        Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                          Would be nice to get a jog in today to keep up blood volume.  A warm up for the 5K would be 1-2 miles. Toward end, run 2 min at near 5K effort.  You can finish 10 minutes before or even 20 minutes before.  But do get a few striders in before the gun goes off. I prefer a slow 1.5 - 2 miles but if it is warm out, I only do a mile as I don't want to heat up too much before the race. You will do well. Just don't hammer it out too early in the race.

                          Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

                            I have no clue.  I've read about a dozen articles on tapering for a 5K and they have gone from no need to taper at all, to 100% complete rest for 3 days before and everything in between.

                             

                            In my experience, the benefits of tapering are minimal to negative unless you're running really big mileage. If I'm averaging an hour per day of running or less, there is basically no benefit to tapering mileage other than maybe the last couple days, I just take 2 or 3 very easy days before a race. I never taper for non-goal races and even for goal races, if I'm averaging more than an hour per day, only taper down to about the hour per day level, except for maybe the last 2 days.

                             

                            Definitely do at least a 15-20 minute warmup + some strides for a 5k. Generally the shorter the race the longer the warmup.

                            Runners run.


                            Feeling the growl again

                              In my experience, the benefits of tapering are minimal to negative unless you're running really big mileage. If I'm averaging an hour per day of running or less, there is basically no benefit to tapering mileage other than maybe the last couple days, I just take 2 or 3 very easy days before a race. I never taper for non-goal races and even for goal races, if I'm averaging more than an hour per day, only taper down to about the hour per day level, except for maybe the last 2 days.

                               

                              Definitely do at least a 15-20 minute warmup + some strides for a 5k. Generally the shorter the race the longer the warmup.

                               

                               

                              When I ran my 10K PR on a Friday night I had done the fastest 4-mile tempo run of my life on Tuesday afternoon.  So two easy days in between.  IIRC I had dropped my mileage down the week prior by just a bit....from ~100-105 to ~85-90.

                               

                              Take a couple days easy before the race, it's enough.  Don't over-think it.

                              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                               

                                Thanks guys.  I'm really hoping to do better on this one than the one I ran a couple weeks ago.

                                 

                                Last night I did 4 X 400m intervals at 7:28 pace with 400m recoveries on the treadmill.  My HR was getting up to right at 80% of Max at the end of the intervals and with the 400m recoveries it was getting all the way down to 70% of Max by the end of the recovery before I started the next.  Only did 3.29 miles total and with the warmup and cooldown it was a 9:32 avg pace so I think it was still a pretty easy workout.

                                 

                                I'm going to do a couple miles today sometime hopefully late afternoon or early evening and will throw in a little bit of fast stuff.

                                 

                                Race time forecast is 33 degrees with 6 mph winds and it is a late start at 10:30 so I will for sure get in a couple miles very easy warming up with a few strides at least or some short 200m or 400m race pace intervals.

                                 

                                My biggest worry on this race is that I don't think it is a certified course and it's a first time event so hopefully it will be pretty close on the distance and the start won't be too big of a mess.

                                 

                                Hopefully by this time next year I'll have another couple minutes taken off my time so this whole PR thing is really just silly right now, but I'm pretty stubborn and for sure want to break 24:00 and it makes me mad that I didn't last time!  I would really like to break 23:00 or at least get close!

                                Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                                Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

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