Hanson's Marathon Project (Read 2119 times)

runmomto3boys


    ^^^^  Thanks for the analysis here.  It was really informative. 


    RunsWithDog

      I just wanted to chime in that I am using the Hansons Beginner schedule for my March 25 marathon, so I'm still in the first 5 weeks of base building.

       

      I'm pretty enthusiastic so far as I have been testing out the various weekly runs during the last couple weeks. So far, so good.

       

      I think the "agrees with my temperament" is an apt description to my feelings about the plan. I like the volume of medium-long runs, as my favorite run distances are 8-15 miles, and Hansons gives me lots of those. The MP tempo runs and the MP-10 sec strength-repeat runs appeal to me, as I actually feel pretty comfortable running (for those shorter distances) at MP, and often run 5-7 miles at MP (or faster) anyway. They'll push me when they get to 8-10 miles, but I think the plan will get me there. I loved running 5 days/wk for HH Int 1 for my last marathon -- I think it was great for my legs and was injury free, which was awesome. I am ready and eager for 6 days/wk, so that is a good fit, too. The bit-faster (50 sec slower than MP for  me) prescribed LR paces are a bit intimidating, coming from a 1-2 min slower than MP experience with HH plans, but since the LR distances are shorter, and more in my comfort zone, they appeal to me just fine. My first LR (just 12 miles) at the Hansons pace this past weekend was super, so that gives me some confidence. The speed repeat workouts are totally new to me and are the only thing that really has had me worried, as I rarely run that fast, but I really want (and recognize I need) to work on my speed right now, so I am ready and eager to give them a shot. So far, so good.

       

      Instead of following the 5 week base building plan (which is quite conservative), I'm doing more miles, trying out the speed workouts, etc. The book indicates that if you are already running > the base building weeks call for, you can continue with what you already do. I'm pretty much doing that, but taking ideas from the Advanced plan and the later weeks of the Beginner plan to test out the various runs.

       

      My last marathon was 11/18,. so my Hansons week 1 started the day after the marathon, so obviously week 1 was a recovery week (which, for me, meant zero running). Weeks 2-5 I am building back up to regular volume (I plan on 25-35 miles/wk these weeks). I added speed work in week 3 (last week).

       

      This week (technically Week 4), I did a LR at the Hansons prescribed pace last weekend, but added a Higdon-style fast finish. (Like a 3/1 Higdon LR.) I'll do my LRs at Hansons paces through the base building period.

       

      I am brand spanking new to formal speed work, so I wanted to test out the 5k pace intervals before plunging into 12x400 in Week 6, as I thought that might be diving into the deep end. Plus, I have an HM Jan 6 that I'd like to perform well in, so I figured adding speed work sooner rather than later would be good for that.

       

      So, I am also doing a speed work out each week during these base building weeks 3-5, but I am easing in to them by doing fewer repeats than are called for later. For my first speed work out last week, I did 8x400 (3200 m total), then this week I did 7x600 (4200 m total). Next week I'll do 5 x 800 (4000 m). The first official speed workout is in week 6, which will be 12x400, and then all the speed workouts are about 5000 m of repeats, so that is what I am gearing up for. So far, I have completed the workouts just fine, and I think I'll be fine with the longer ones, too, once I get to them. Keeping an even pace is hard, and these shorter workouts are helping me learn what my 5k pace feels like as well as teaching me to slow down sufficiently during the recovery intervals.

       

      I'm not sure if anyone mentioned, but the book does offer a schedule adaptation for a race at the end of week 7. My HM is exactly at this time (total coincidence! it was meant to be!), and although the schedule suggests a 5k or 10k, I am modifying the weeks 7 & 8 similar to what the book suggests for the race, with a bit more cutting back the week before and days after since the HM is a longer distance.

       

      So, anyway, so far, so good for me.

       

      I really think the book is great, BTW.

      PRs: 10k 57:30, HM 2:11:12, Full 5:02:57

      Next Up: HM 1/6/13 & Marathon #3 3/24/13

      Training Plan Right Now: Hansons Brothers Beginner Marathon Plan

      sdfgewiuohsdf


        Spam

          Steph

           

          They actually say that new marathoners (like yourself) should be leaning more towards a 10k pace instead of a 5k pace when doing the intervals and to do them all. Faster and more seasoned marathoners can typically run speed intervals at 5k pace without fading. The point is to be able to perform each and every interval at the same pace and not slow down on the later sets or skip them all together.

           

          The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

           

          2014 Goals:

           

          Stay healthy

          Enjoy life

           

          nickshawn


          Sir Mix a Lot

            Just to answer the OP question as I am late to this party and not going to read through the 7 pages of posts...

             

            I have used the purchased plan (16 week, 65-80 mpw) from the Hanson website for my last two marathons with very good results. First time I dropped the mileage by roughly 10% because I didn't think I was ready for the suggested mileage. Dropped my marathon PR from 3:35 (2009) to 3:21 (2011) with the asterik that this was over a 2 year span as my 2010 marathon was Chicago and we all know how that went...

             

            Next cycle I stuck with the plan after averaging around 50 mpw for the 1st half of the year. Dropped the 3:21 (Philly 2011) to a 3:13 (Chicago 2012) and finished feeling very strong.

             

            I plan on using it again to train for my first April marathon. Big grin 

              I should have made a list. But here are a few that come to mind. 

               

              Excellent, thanks.

              I nominate you to be RA's official running plan / running book analyst.


              RunsWithDog

                Steph

                 

                They actually say that new marathoners (like yourself) should be leaning more towards a 10k pace instead of a 5k pace when doing the intervals and to do them all. Faster and more seasoned marathoners can typically run speed intervals at 5k pace without fading. The point is to be able to perform each and every interval at the same pace and not slow down on the later sets or skip them all together.

                 

                Thanks!

                 

                Where do they say that (about 10k pace instead of 5k pace)? I missed that! Can you give me a chapter or page #? I must have spaced out!

                Do I still count as new if I this is my third? (I am new here, but have been running for 28 months. This is my third marathon.)

                 

                I am only doing the reduced volume of repeats during these EXTRA sessions not actually prescribed during these first base building weeks (which don't prescribe any pace-specified runs). I plan and expect to be fully ready for the full prescribed sessions as soon as they are actually called for in the plan (week 6, two weeks from now.) I just wanted to get the hang of doing them before the first official session.

                 

                So far, I'm not fading during the intervals at all. Actually, I start too fast and have to adjust my pace to stay near the prescribed pace (generally still ending up 5-8 sec/min too fast, which I am working on.) Each repeat is totally solid so far, no fading at the end. Final intervals tend to be even more too fast than earlier ones. So, I think I can handle the 5k repeats. If I can handle the 5k pace, is there a reason for me to do them slower?

                PRs: 10k 57:30, HM 2:11:12, Full 5:02:57

                Next Up: HM 1/6/13 & Marathon #3 3/24/13

                Training Plan Right Now: Hansons Brothers Beginner Marathon Plan

                Venomized


                Drink up moho's!!

                  I remember as well the book saying for newer runners to target the 10K pace but I don't have the book with me to tell you which section.  Most likely it will be in the section talking about speed work.


                  RunsWithDog

                    I remember as well the book saying for newer runners to target the 10K pace but I don't have the book with me to tell you which section.  Most likely it will be in the section talking about speed work.

                    PRs: 10k 57:30, HM 2:11:12, Full 5:02:57

                    Next Up: HM 1/6/13 & Marathon #3 3/24/13

                    Training Plan Right Now: Hansons Brothers Beginner Marathon Plan


                    RunsWithDog

                      I remember as well the book saying for newer runners to target the 10K pace but I don't have the book with me to tell you which section.  Most likely it will be in the section talking about speed work.

                       

                      Hmm, I really can't locate this tidbit during my reveiw of the speed sections of the book. In fact, all of the charts on pp 59-65 prescribe just a single pace for either a 5k goal or a 10k goal (with the 5k and 10k goals being roughly equivalent, as in the 10k slightly slower), and then pace (they present it as a set time for the given distance) equates to precisely 5k pace when you extrapolate it. (Since I don't run on a measured track, I actually find the 5k pace number easier to use for a guide, since that is a metric easily tracked on my Garmin, so I can use the pace as my guide for the intervals and push my button at .25 miles or .37 or whatever, and know that even if I am off by 10 seconds in the distance of the interval (due to the imprecision of .01 miles), I am fairly on track with the pace itself, and I can watch that as I run . . . If you look at 1600 pace chart on p 65, you can see that the pace is the 5k time that you plugged into the charts to begin with, lol. (This is give or take a few seconds, as my running is slow enough, and my paces imprecise enough, that I'm not sweating the effot to calculate it down to the very second using meters/miles conversions . . . So, don't take my word for this if precision is vital to you.)

                       

                      I think the book prescribes 5k pace (actually written as "goal 5k") for all the speed repeats, at both Beginner and Advanced levels.

                       

                      FWIW, I think the Beginner Hansons plan is more equivalent to an Advanced-Intermediate Higdon plan. I think anyone trying it would be wise to have a base of at least 30 mpw and a comfort with LRs of 12-15 miles. I think jumping in to it with much less than that would be rough (at least it would have been for me!) I know the book tells me I could/should do the Advanced plan with my background, but I think that'd be too much of a stretch for me, even with a reasonable 35 mpw base for a couple past months and two marathons under my belt, let alone for someone with less mileage . . . I don't think I'd have been ready for it for my first marathon, for sure. Then again, I wasn't ready for my first marathon using my Higdon plan either, lol, so maybe Hansons would have been better for me, but I'd have needed more volume than I was strong enough for, so I guess I'd have simply had to wait for my first marathon if I wanted to use Hansons for it . . . I'm glad I'm past that stage! 

                      PRs: 10k 57:30, HM 2:11:12, Full 5:02:57

                      Next Up: HM 1/6/13 & Marathon #3 3/24/13

                      Training Plan Right Now: Hansons Brothers Beginner Marathon Plan

                        I don't have my book handy but I did find this in and article about the Manson Marathon plan,

                         

                        The difference is that the speed workouts total three miles of fast work at between 5K and 10K pace —"We usually tell everyone 10K, because they wind up going faster anyway"

                         

                        That was Kevin Hanson's quote.

                         

                        The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                         

                        2014 Goals:

                         

                        Stay healthy

                        Enjoy life

                         

                          What do you guys think of going by HR for pace on the Moderate Long Runs and the MP Tempo runs?

                           

                          Daniels tables show 78% of max HR for their moderate aerobic level and that lines up well for me right now on Hanson's tables.  They show a 9:29 recommended pace for my moderate aerobic long runs and I ran 12 miles yesterday at an avg pace of 9:32 and avg HR of 77%.

                           

                          I'm going to start out with an 8:45 MP Tempo pace and Daniels tables are showing 84% of max HR for a marathon.  I'm thinking I could target that 84% as the max HR on my MP Tempo runs for now.

                           

                          The reason I'm thinking of doing this is I'm hoping as I continue to train more and add more volume, I will get in better shape and be able to run faster at the same HR.  If I set 78% of my max HR as my target for my moderate aerobic long run then I can adjust my pace down if I do get in better shape.  Instead of sticking to a 9:30 pace for the next 4 months, and my HR dropping down to say 75% on the long runs, I would bump the pace up as I go to maybe 9:15 pace and keep my HR at 78% on the long runs.  I would do the same thing on the MP Tempo runs, if I end up where I can run an 8:45 pace Tempo run without getting my HR to 84%, I'll drop the pace a little.

                           

                          Any thoughts on this?  Other than the fact that I'm making this way too complicated for my first marathon! Big grin

                           

                          Thanks, Nathan

                          Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27


                          RunsWithDog

                            Regarding using HR for the pace of runs . . .

                             

                            I have been wondering about this, too!

                             

                            I think it really comes down to just how much you trust the Daniels (or whoever) HR zones (and whatever underlying data you have used to get the zones. How reasonable is your race goal? Do you have recent race times to use as a basis for it? Better yet, do you also have HR data for the recent race times to validate your fancy HR zones/charts with -- making sure that your actual race HR from recent races is actually IN the zones they are thinking it should be?

                             

                            I am looking at my own HR data from the last few runs (on my training log), and if I believed my HR caluclations from the spreadsheet found here: http://mymarathonpace.com/Running_Calculators.html, then that means I can run a HELL of a lot faster than I have been. Shocked 

                             

                            I used to run with a HR monitor religiously, but then went 6 months without it when the last one crapped out. When I used it a year ago and first did those calculations (above), my training experience closely reflected the calculations. I ran my races right in the low end of the calculated zones. (Which I would presume is to be expected since my race total TIMES are longer than the speedier runners that likely make up the bulk of the data sets for these calculators.)

                             

                            BUT, now I have a HR monitor again, and my HR is much lower at similar paces than it used to be. This makes sense since I have trained a lot (and run two marathons) since the last time I had a HR monitor . . .

                             

                            But, the chart is now telling me that my 9:46 HM pace run the other day had me at a HR in the LOW END of my MARATHON zone. Holy crap. My recent PR on the marathon was a good 90ish seconds slower than that. There is no way I could have done anything close to 9:46 for a marathon. I am even skeptical that I can pull it off for my HM in 3 weeks. (Which is why I was testing it out the other day. My PR is 10:00 for a HM, and I was intending to test out 10:00, but I ended up faster, and my HR was so low that I kept at it. This week I am going to test 9:30. If it doesn't kill me, I might use that as my HM goal pace.)

                             

                            Similarly, the HR zones tell me that my working LR pace of 11:30 is too slow (by half a notch in the zones, it was several beats into the Easy zone.) So, I really don't have enough HR data on my recent training and races to trust the charts yet. These LRs at 11:30 have felt pretty easy, but I struggle to imagine that any faster is realistic for me, given that would mean I'd be expecting to run a marathon faster than my current working goal (4:45) which already sounds like a solid challenge to me based on recent experience.

                             

                            So, for me, I won't trust the HR Zone data to notch up my training paces unless and until I have race data to back it up, or at least a lot of tempo miles that feel great. I mean, if you can run 10 miles at Race pace and feel fresh and good after the workout, then that race pace is probably conservative, right?

                             

                            My current thinking is that either I have gotten lazy and too comfortable running comfortably . . . OR those HR zones in my fancy chart are no longer applying well to me for some mysterious reason. (My RHR and MaxHR are still valid, and so I can't imagine why things would have changed so much . . .) So, probably I am lazy. I guess I will find out soon enough (Jan 6 HM) if I have more juice in these legs than I have been using . . .

                             

                            I really have no idea what makes sense, lol. Sorry if all that rambling was totally useless.

                            PRs: 10k 57:30, HM 2:11:12, Full 5:02:57

                            Next Up: HM 1/6/13 & Marathon #3 3/24/13

                            Training Plan Right Now: Hansons Brothers Beginner Marathon Plan

                              It makes sense to me. 

                               

                              My HR seems to line up pretty good on my half marathon races.  It shows 87% of max HR for half marathon which is 169 for me and my 2 half marathons have been at 169 and 168 avg HR.  Of course the first miles were a little below that and the last few miles were way above that, but the avg worked out to what they are showing.

                               

                              My HR doesn't seem to match up quite as well on the shorter distances, I guess I'm a wimp and not pushing hard enough long enough on those.  My PR 5K was at 90% of max when the tables show you should be able to run a 5K at 95% of max.

                               

                              For now I'm just sticking with the paces in Hanson's tables, I'll just be comparing my HR to the tables and only adjusting if it seems like those paces are too slow.  I'm sticking with 70% of max HR for my easy runs the rest of the week and no idea on the intervals, I'm just going to run those at the recommended paces based on my original goal for the speedwork for sure.  I guess I can adjust the strength portion later if my fitness level indicates I need to.

                              Age: 46 Weight: 205 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                              Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

                                I should have made a list. But here are a few that come to mind. 

                                 

                                * * * 

                                 

                                This is why I belong to RA.  Terrific breakdown.  I have the book and will be experimenting with the Hansons Plan this Spring. 

                                 

                                thanks