1234

Observations of weight to speed (Read 1830 times)


Slow-smooth-fast

    I was on a run the other day and stopped to chat to a guy I recognised from a few local races I had seen. I hadn’t seen him run for a while and so wanted to stop to have a chat. I remember how during his winning streak his ability seemed to have improved dramatically and asked him about it.

     

    He said that the main difference had come when he joined one of the better running clubs in the area. He said that when he joined his coach asked him what he weighed. He was 160lbs. Apparently his coach told him to lose 14lb. He did this by reducing his habit of sweets etc and upping his mileage to about 70mpw.

     

    The results spoke for themselves as he went from a top 20 finisher to a top 3/winner. His 5k time went down from early 18s to mid 16s.

     

    This is interesting and I know that weight does obviously have an effect on running performance. I have always struggled with my weight and during my 9 months layoff due to Achilles problems I hit the weights to set my endorphins free. I went up to 240lb of packed muscle. Now I am back to running and feeling good and back to about 192lbs. The way I am looking at the moment is slim, but I know that I want to be a lot slimmer. I want to ideally get down to about 168lbs. Losing the rest of this is going to be difficult I foresee and a lot of people keep saying that I look slim enough.

     

    I remember watching a documentary about Alex Vero and someone was being interviewed about marathon runners and weight. He said: "When people start coming up to you and asking if you are ok, then that’s when you know you are the right weight".

     

    I want to shed the pounds but it has really slowed down now. I am running about 50mpw ish and plan to go up to 60 over the next few weeks. I am following Weight Watchers so all my calories are counted and I have one treat day. How do you think I am best to proceed? More miles? Less cals? I see this would only lead to injuries and not be good. I have just gone back to work after 2 weeks of paternity. I have the option of getting about 4miles in on my dinner. Then I can do my regular run before or after work, this would really boost my miles, but is the extra 4 gonna be just filler or help? I plan to run these very easy, as my mileage could get very high).

     

    Another thing I have started doing is general additional training, using a kettlebell (following Kettlework) and bodylastics, (following P90X), all mainly core work as I want to tone my midsection. Will working with these apparatus' stop my weight loss?

     

    Essentially how on earth do people get so skinny, I work my butt off and seem to plateau at this weight (albeit for my frame I look quite slim, but for a runner I have a long way to go).

    "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009


    Feeling the growl again

      I had two people tell me yesterday that I need to eat more.  I have about five more pounds to lose to get down to a reasonable racing weight. Wink

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

      heather85


        Well, my doctor told me the other day I needed to cut my miles way down if I wanted to lose weight because I've messed my body all up (not his words, but gist) with the training.  So apparently, you shouldn't run.  Wink

          I am not a doctor and I am not a running coach but I have tried a lot of different training plans over the years and always try to relate everything I do back to my physics degree so here is my take on running and weight loss:

           

          The loss of weight leading to faster running is kind of a no brainer (f=ma...lower the mass and you get more acceleration for the same force from your legs).  The problem with lowering your mass by decreasing calories and increasing mileage is that some of the weight you will lose will come from the muscles that you need to give you the force that drives your acceleration.

           

          I try to think kind of like a weight-lifter when running.  Higher speed is the equivalent of higher weight (assuming you hold a roughly constant leg turn-over).  Higher mileage is higher reps.  To gain muscle in your legs you want to add on high speed, low distance training days (these are your track workouts or hill workouts).  On your track day (or hills day) you want to eat more calories than you will burn so that your body can use that food to build muscle rather than burn your muscle for energy.  Think 2x “strength” running days per week with a couple days in between.

           

          Shorten your long run!!!  We all tend to go crazy with junk mileage and end up going into starvation mode which slows our rate of body fat burn.  Make your long run no more than ~20% of your weekly mileage.  If you want to go for a 15 mile long run then make sure you've logged 60 miles over the past 6 days (this isn’t an exact rule, just don’t let that long run get that much longer than your normal weekly runs).  By keeping your long run closer to your daily average run you can pick up the pace for all your runs.  On your non-track, non-hills days it is okay to be a little calorie deficient (burn more than you eat) to lower your mass but don't go crazy with it or your body will think it is starving.  Take a long-term approach to weight loss and speed gains.

           

          I’ve used this plan since starting to come back from a nasty knee injury last winter and while I’m not yet back to the fastest of my life it has helped me get back under 18 for the 5k for the first time since 3 injuries ago and more importantly put together my longest ever stretch of injury-free running (7 months).

            Well, it comes down to what your primary goal is.

             

            1. Do you solely want to be a better runner, race faster etc at the expense of muscle and having the ideal looking physique. If so, the best way to do this is drop the bodybuilding wt training exercises. It is fine to do core work but not heavy wts and higher rep stuff.

            2. Do you want to look good/muscular/lean and still run and race well but not to your potential?  Keep the weights and running.

             

            Note: This is where I am at. I do not want to give up the muscular look. At 178lbs, I know I could get to 160 or so if I dropped the weights. Just not really willing to do this now. Maybe at some point. With all this being said, we all respond differently to stress. I am 5'11" at 178. My buddy is 5'11" and 145 and lifts weights. We have different bodies and genetics.  Eddy, you probably can't get to 160 but you could get down by losing muscle. Do you want to?

            Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

              Hey Eddy, I feel like I have had the most success dropping weight and maintaining training when I'm at about 50-60 mpw and not eating junk (no exceptions, no beer, no ice cream, no cookies, no cake!).  Last fall/winter that put me on a nice downward glide of about 1# per week.  I think this is a reasonable rate of weight loss to still have enough energy to train.

               

              BTW,  your story about the guy going from mid 18's to mid 16's -- totally believable.

               

              This quote you cited is a dandy, "When people start coming up to you and asking if you are ok, then that’s when you know you are the right weight."

               

              I have a work buddy here (2:24 marathon PR) who told me, "When your mom tells you that you're looking healthy it means you need to cut some weight!"

              - Joe

              all running goals are under review by the executive committee.


              Feeling the growl again

                Hey Eddy, I feel like I have had the most success dropping weight and maintaining training when I'm at about 50-60 mpw and not eating junk (no exceptions, no beer, no ice cream, no cookies, no cake!). 

                 

                The problem with losing weight running high mileage is that the calorie deficit inhibits recovery.  I would totally agree that weight loss is maximized at what one would personally consider to be moderate mileage, combined with a stringent but thoughtful diet.  Avoid really hard workouts when running a calorie deficit.

                 

                I'm trying to drop some weight quickly for an upcoming race...honestly it's probably too quickly...boy were yesterday's runs uncomfortable.

                 

                FWIW in college I dropped from around 36min 10K to 34:18 primarily through losing 10lbs I didn't realize I could afford.  All of my current PRs were set under 150lbs...most at 145lbs, though I could not maintain that weight very long without causing recovery issues and I certainly could not taper into a marathon that light.

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 

                  Hey Eddy, I feel like I have had the most success dropping weight and maintaining training when I'm at about 50-60 mpw and not eating junk (no exceptions, no beer, no ice cream, no cookies, no cake!).  Last fall/winter that put me on a nice downward glide of about 1# per week.  I think this is a reasonable rate of weight loss to still have enough energy to train.

                   

                  BTW,  your story about the guy going from mid 18's to mid 16's -- totally believable.

                   

                  This quote you cited is a dandy, "When people start coming up to you and asking if you are ok, then that’s when you know you are the right weight."

                   

                  I have a work buddy here (2:24 marathon PR) who told me, "When your mom tells you that you're looking healthy it means you need to cut some weight!"

                   

                  You lost me at "no beer, no ice cream, no cookies, no cake."

                  HF #8206

                   

                    Make your long run no more than ~20% of your weekly mileage. 

                     

                    unless you are doing doubles or running 7 days a week this is almost impossible.

                    In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

                    http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white&fb_source=message

                     

                     

                     

                    DoppleBock


                      Muscle weighs a lot

                       

                      I gave up lifting weights 4+ years ago - So now my potential racing weight went from 195-200 down to 180-185 - I just need to get there.   I do not like the "No Weights" thing - I am starting to do really light weights - The arm I broke this summer is really crackling in the elbow - Whish is helping me stay light.

                       

                      If I would stay off the weights for another few years, my racing weight could get down to 165-170.  But thats likely the bottom with my frame.

                      http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                      2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                       

                        I was on a run the other day and stopped to chat to a guy I recognised from a few local races I had seen. I hadn’t seen him run for a while and so wanted to stop to have a chat. I remember how during his winning streak his ability seemed to have improved dramatically and asked him about it.

                         

                        He said that the main difference had come when he joined one of the better running clubs in the area. He said that when he joined his coach asked him what he weighed. He was 160lbs. Apparently his coach told him to lose 14lb. He did this by reducing his habit of sweets etc and upping his mileage to about 70mpw.

                         

                        The results spoke for themselves as he went from a top 20 finisher to a top 3/winner. His 5k time went down from early 18s to mid 16s.

                         

                        This is interesting and I know that weight does obviously have an effect on running performance. I have always struggled with my weight and during my 9 months layoff due to Achilles problems I hit the weights to set my endorphins free. I went up to 240lb of packed muscle. Now I am back to running and feeling good and back to about 192lbs. The way I am looking at the moment is slim, but I know that I want to be a lot slimmer. I want to ideally get down to about 168lbs. Losing the rest of this is going to be difficult I foresee and a lot of people keep saying that I look slim enough.

                         

                        I remember watching a documentary about Alex Vero and someone was being interviewed about marathon runners and weight. He said: "When people start coming up to you and asking if you are ok, then that’s when you know you are the right weight".

                         

                        I want to shed the pounds but it has really slowed down now. I am running about 50mpw ish and plan to go up to 60 over the next few weeks. I am following Weight Watchers so all my calories are counted and I have one treat day. How do you think I am best to proceed? More miles? Less cals? I see this would only lead to injuries and not be good. I have just gone back to work after 2 weeks of paternity. I have the option of getting about 4miles in on my dinner. Then I can do my regular run before or after work, this would really boost my miles, but is the extra 4 gonna be just filler or help? I plan to run these very easy, as my mileage could get very high).

                         

                        Another thing I have started doing is general additional training, using a kettlebell (following Kettlework) and bodylastics, (following P90X), all mainly core work as I want to tone my midsection. Will working with these apparatus' stop my weight loss?

                         

                        Essentially how on earth do people get so skinny, I work my butt off and seem to plateau at this weight (albeit for my frame I look quite slim, but for a runner I have a long way to go).

                        I have said this many times on here (not that I'm right...) but almost everything in life interacts with other factors.  Unfortunately, scientists would have to isolate ONE element to find out whatever they want to find out; write paper and New York Times exaggerate things and everybody starts to jump up and down.  How much of your friend's improvement is purely from weight loss and how much of that is from upping the mileage?  And how much of his weight loss came from upping the mileage?

                         

                        Yes, weight loss DOES matter and it DOES affect your performance; but you also have to remember that it DOES affect your performance negatively as well.  Yoko Shibui tends to gain weight easily and she had struggled with this issue throughout her career.  She set the Japan's national record for 10000m with 30:48 (I think) when she was about 5 pounds overweight.  On the other hand, before Beining Olympic trial, she was waaaaay too skinny and I actually warned her coach--nevertheless, it was too late because I noticed it during the press coference.  She ran out of gas after 30k.  Of course, we're not talking here about losing from 160lb down to 140; more like from 125 down to 115.  Far too many people think weight loss=faster time and it ain't so.

                         

                        I know I'm not ideal weight at the moment; I know I eat too much junk too late at night.  But now that I'm running twice a day; yesterday, I ran this loop, which took me 1:02 in July and 42 minutes last month and yesterday I did it in 39 so I'm feeling good, running better and I can tell I'm losing some weight and I'm not too worried about it.  When I get serious about racing, I'll stop eating late at night and, by then, I'll be trying to get more sleep anyways.  A lot of weight loss SHOULD come naturally--here, I mean by "naturally" including "not eating too much unk food" as well.  Sure, certain discipline is necessary but forcing to lose weight often leads to disastor.

                         

                        I'd be also curious to know; I would say it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to have 240 pounds of packed muscle withoug being a 6'5" shot-putter or football player.  I don't know of your physical make-up but if you are actually struggling to lose any further from 192; I wonder where you got your ideal weight of being 168...  If you're training deligently and eating right, and still struggling to lose weight, there might be a reason for that.

                         

                        I haven't read everybody's comment but someone mentioned something about what your goals are (TChuck???  How are you doing these days, buddy?); and I also know that you asked me about hill training about a month or so ago...have you been doing hill training?  Have you done some sort of base-building before that?  Are you training for any specific race these days and, during the course of preparation, you figured, at this point of preparation, that you're way too over-weight (like 2 weeks before a fast race and you don't feel sharp)???  Or are you just thinking about it because you ran into your friend?  You seem to jump to one thing to another, without much focus of what you really want to achieve.  Message board like this is perfect for someone like that becuase you just post a topic and everybody chips in.  But it's also one of the easiest ways to lose focus and only look into one topic at hand...often no relation whatsoever to your prefious comment. 

                         

                        Yes, weight loss does affect your perfromance positively....but it all depends on how much, when, how you achieve it, etc.  If you want a quick answer; search in NYT data base; I'm sure you'll find a bunch of articles that tell you how so-and-so improved his/her race time by 20% by losing weight and that's the solution to everything; and a half a dozen more articles that tell you how so-and-so got into eating disorder by trying to lose weight and that's the worst evil thinking of all time.


                        Slow-smooth-fast

                          Let me tell you that I am not officially doing weights. I just do core work, crunches, side bends, twists etc, either with my body lastics for some resistance or my 9kg kettlebell. So it is not as though I am lifting anything heavy or training the rest of my body, so hopefully this shouldnt really impace on my weight.

                          It is more to try to tone my core. This is surely ok as a strong core is necessary isnt it?

                          "I've been following Eddy's improvement over the last two years on this site, and it's been pretty dang solid. Sure the weekly mileage has been up and down, but over the long haul he's getting out the door and has turned himself into quite a runner. He's only now just figuring out his potential. Consistency in running is measured in years, not weeks. And over the last couple of years, Eddy's made great strides" Jeff 14 Jan 2009

                            unless you are doing doubles or running 7 days a week this is almost impossible.

                             

                            Not impossible at all.

                             

                            Mon - 7

                            Tue - 8

                            Wed - 9

                            Thu - 8

                            Fri - off

                            Sat  - 8

                            Sun - 10

                             

                            6 days, all singles, 10 mile long run / 50 mile week = 20%.

                             

                            This isn't an endorsement of the 20% rule since I don't think that has much value, but it's certainly possible.

                            Runners run.


                            Just a dude.

                              Eddy, I find that when I want to lose weight, there is a limit to how many miles I can run... Somewhere around 60 a week, I tip over a magic line where the demands my body makes for more food just can't be ignored.  

                               

                              Last year I lost 80 pounds... (from a plump 265 to 185)  I kept increasing my mileage until I hit the 60's, and that's when I plateaued... I got to 85 a week and still was stuck....

                               

                              Then I had ankle problems and the docs came up with so many wrong strategies, that I was stuck not running for 9 months.  I eventually had surgery that fixed the problem... I really regret that I didn't keep the weight off as well as I should... but instead I ballooned back up to about 235...

                               

                              Now I am on the way back down.  I'm losing roughly 10 pounds a month.  I'm not really counting calories, but watching closely to make sure I eat right without eating too much... trying to make sure I am fueled for harder or longer runs... and that I am recovering and sleeping enough... Some days I don't eat enough and I can feel it in my workouts... I just adjust and keep at it.

                               

                              I'm not nearly as concerned with my speed right now as I am my weight and overall health.  The best way for me to get faster is to get lighter, so that's where I'm focusing most... 

                               

                              -Kelly

                              Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape... 

                                 

                                A man weighing165 pounds can run sub-13 for a 5k and 27 flat for a 10k.  I only know this because I've seen it.  Otherwise I would not have believed it. 

                                In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion

                                http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white&fb_source=message

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                1234