Experience with Owen Anderson's schedules? (Read 2136 times)

Hi,

I'm new in this forum and already answered a very old topic. Hope that it is OK to add it here as this is probably the right place to put it

As I see it, Owen Anderson has a quite different approach to running compared to for example Jack Daniels. Anderson recommends doing super sets and marathon circuit training which is described in the below link as well.

I've done super sets for marathon and marathon circuit training. Will be running Frankfurt marathon late this week. One of my friends ran Berlin Marathon where he'd used super sets. He was much faster for this event (3.07) than the other running pals who had done conventional training and who are faster on other distances.

Note that it is possible to do the circuit training for marathon if you have access to a track:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/running-training-workouts-for-a-variety-of-running-events-118

Do you think that it is too much to do the super sets and marathon circuit training if you have two quality sessions in a week and the average mileage is about 75 km?

I feel pretty sure that Anderson's training ideas are just right for me. Jack Daniels' ideas are also fantastic but I really love the above challenging training types. Do any of you have experience with Owen Anderson's training? 

Cheers,

Paul

Marathon Superset

Again I would see a 4 mile warmup

3x(400@5k, 800@10k, 2000@MP) - 4 minutes easy jog between each superset 400+800+2000+(600-800) x 3 = 11,700 total + 1600 cooldown = 20 km total for run ~ 12 miles

I think this is common enough - A superset with Vo2 ~ although it takes 2 minutes to hit max heart rate and you are starting the 400 rested each set, so I do not think you ever actualli hit max heart rate.  The 800 at 10k is faster than you have to run to hit LAT, so maybe it will touch both LAT and Vo2 and 2000 at MP - Seems logical enough.

I wonder why the workout would not be 3x(800@10k, 400@ 5k, 2000@ MP)

The 800 @ 10 would get your heart rate nicely evelated so that when you drop into your 400 @ 5k you hit max heart rate quickly.

Dopple Bock, thanks for your thorough answers.

I simply don't know why Anderson uses different terms for the same thing. I'm absolutely convinced that the terms velocity and pace are exactly the same thing here.

The reason why I like the marathon circuit training is because it is quite fun to run when you are totally exhausted and do nasty exercises in between. Otherwise I do very little strength training so for me it is rather nice to combine the two.

You are absolutely right with the suggested running volume but I'm a bit lazy so for marathon circuits the total volume will be:

1.5 km warm-up. 12 km tough running. 1.5 km cool-down = 14 km.

Super sets: 1.5 km warm-up. 9.6 km tough running. 1.5 km cool-down = 12.6 km. Between the super sets, I simply take a break of 3-4 minutes instead of jogging as suggested by Anderson.

If you've done all the other homework, a gimmicky workout such as those might help you.  But you do realize that "a workout" or two will not make it or break it, right?  We have a workout such as 50/50 (50m sprint followed by 50m float) or 100/100; much like (in)famous Tabata sprints.  It's not THAT workout would make you able to run a good marathon or not but it's all dozen other workouts that had been put together in a balanced way that matters.  Anybody who says; "Do this workout and you'll be a success..." is, as Mark Wetmore would put it, a witch-doctor.  Frankly I don't think Owen Anderson knows, nor understand, much of TRAINING.  I think he likes to sit in front of the desk and play around with formula, coming up with a fancy workpouts and terms.

Nobby415, it is my impression that Anderson is an acknowledged coach. He has also traveled to Kenya several times to study the running techniques of some of their top runners.

Dopple Bock, right now I'm reading Anderson's book Great Workouts for Popular Races. In this book, we have a couple of differences:

Marathon Circuit Training: The running parts are performed at 10K and goal marathon pace.

Super sets: 400@5K, 400@10K and 2400@MP

As far as I know, the guy who ran the marathon in 3.07 didn't exceed a mileage of 60 km any weeks. His training was based on a lot of high quality and he is a very experienced runner who is strong in long runs.

Back in 2003, I used super sets and my times exploded from 5K to half-marathon.  However, when I ran my fastest marathon in 2004, the program was based on a program from Daniels' Running  Formula. It is naturally logical that when you start making training schedules based on the principles of running gurus, performance must increase.

Nobby415, it is my impression that Anderson is an acknowledged coach. He has also traveled to Kenya several times to study the running techniques of some of their top runners.

All due respect, padstars, what gives you this "impression" that he's an acknowledged coach?  I have yet to name ONE athlete who has done well or win Olympic medal being coached by him.  I know a few people who had traveled to Kenya and "observed" what elite Kenyan runners are doing but that would NOT be a reason to listen to what they have to say about training.

Owen Anderson used to (I don't know if he still does) have a publication (monthly or quarterly newsletter) called Running Research News.  It was quite interesting and I used to subscribe to it.  But very quickly it became apparent, to me, that he was just putting ANYTHING together to make it interesting and keep it coming each issue.  I have discussed this with a guy by the name of Peter Snell, just in case if you didn't know who he is, he won 3 Olympic gold medals and 8 world records, now a renowned exercise physiologist, he said the same thing--that those people usually NEED to keep some interesting information coming to maintain the publication.  He (Anderson) has had some interesting writings and I liked them.  But he also had some garbage; to the point where I actually wrote to him to criticize for what he was doing.  He was writing some utter nonesense to spreading the wrong idea.  In fact, one of my friends did the same because here he is (Anderson), preaching "less is better, quality over quantity, look at what Kenyans are doing..."  And when you actually do look at what Kenyans are doing, you see 7-miles in the morning, 6-miles intervals mid-day, and another 8 mile run in the evening...  So what's so "less" or "lack of quantity" about that?  His conclusion was that Anderson already has an agenda that he wants to write and he would "claim" that he went to Kenya and observe what those guys were doing; and just clap his conclusion whether that's what they were really doing or not.  It is a poor journalism at best. 

Besides, I have NO interest whatosever to what top level Kenyan runners are doing in their training.  I don't think it has any bearing to what you should be doing as a 3-hour runner.

I love his concept of a lot of quality and less quantity for average runners like me with a limited time for training but I'm completely positive that Lydiard's principles with a lot of mileage are better for elite runners. 

Padstars:

I had been criticized by my own runners for spending my time, posting something here at RA and not spending enough time with them though I had never received a dime from any of them (except Kristen has donated out of her goodness so thank-you, Wannabe!!).  But this is the kind of thread and comment I just cannot let go of.  I know it's just you don't understand and I know you have no ill-intention or anything negative at all.  I just do not understand, well-reputable guy like Owen Anderson (while I ripped him apart, I do recognize his position and background as well) don't bother to explain.  He SHOULD understand human physiology and he's basically suggesting something totally against it.  What's up with that...???

So here's how it works and, if you don't believe it, fine.  If you choose NOT to listen, I won't take it personally either.  It's your business.  But I just HATE the idea of hundreds and thousands of audience here read your comment and goes, "Huh?  That sounds good...  I don't have time and I'm sure as hell not committed to train like elite (like more than 5 days a week)...  His friend improved his marathon time so maybe I should try that..."  What you just described above ("I have limited time to train a lot of mileage like elite runners so I'll just do less quantity and a lot of quality as an averate runner...") is like planting a tomato bush in the end of September and think, "Well, I don't have luxuary of waiting for 3 months for this guy to grow and develop.  I think I'll just go out there every day and pull the tip of this plant...  It'll grow faster."  Would it?  Don't laugh about this analogy; that's EXACTLY what you're trying to do.  A lot of slow running is EXACTLY what you, as an average runner, need to do BEFORE you engage yourself with high quality workouts such as the one Anderson advocates.  Of course, yes, everybody is different (shut up, Jeff!! ;o)) in a sense that what they had done 3 month or 3 years or 13 years prior to doing it.  Your friend--I don't know--might have done the homework and had some level of fitness background to be able to handle Anderson workout before he improved his marathon time.  You might too IF you had done your homework of low-quality/high-volume work to begin with.  Just in case if you didn't know, that's what many Kenyan low-teen kids do!!  I don't know if Anderson traveled all the way to Kenya ONLY to observe their elite runners.  I know for the fact, the other guy, Toby Tanser who authured that excellent book, "Train Hard, Win Easy" or now "More Fire".  He actually talks about how Kenyan kids train....or live.  Without that background, what their elite runners do mean NOTHING. 

I'd be VERY curious to see if any research has been done to what happens to promising young enthusiastic runners if they only did low-volume/high-intensity type of training....10 years down the road.  I don't think there has EVER been a study like that done.  What researchers in white gown would do is to pick some average college kids and say, okay, we're going to divide you in two groups; one you'll do 3 weeks of all intervals (high quality low volume) and the other group you only do an hour of easy jog for 3 weeks.  Three weeks later, they'll put them in a 5k race and guess which one excell?  I would very much like to see a follow-up research done to these guys, maybe 4 months down the road, and see which group is still improving the half way, 2 months, which one has more injuries, which one is still enjoying running more....and then 5 years down the road, which one is still running and enjoying the activity.  And if such study has already been done, I'd very much like to see that.  It's not a research but I know a guy who actually did that when he was coaching a high school team.  He moved on to coach the first woman to go faster than 2:20 in the marathon.  Any experienced and knowledgeable coach would know the answer. 

Everybody is different (yes, yes, Jeff...!) in a sense that we all have different background and, yes, slightly different make-ups.  But we are ALL the same human being in a sense that we all have the same physiological reactions.  There's a reason why fast training makes you a fast runner.  But there are tons of other aspects that goes into that simple act of running faster.  Just because one person did one kind of workout and improve, that does not mean everybody should do THAT workout and get the same rate of improvement.  All the buildings and houses look different but they all have certain requirments in order to be a good safe sturdy house.  They all require solid foundation.  Regardless of how beautiful the house may be, if you build that on the sandy beach, it won't last too long, would it? 

Dr. Snell was one of the guest speakers at our Lydiard clinic in Boulder a month ago.  It was a 2-day event and he spoke on both days.  On the first day, his presentation was "How slow (long) running makes you fast" and on the second day his presentation was "How fast running (if done incorrectly) makes you slow"...  Contradictory?  Again, experienced and knowledage runners/coaches can understand exactly what that means.  To me, the thing about exercise physiologists is that they look into a very narrow scope.  How does this ONE aspect affect...  THAT is how they operate.  But nothing in life works alone; it's always interaction with other aspects.  Actually the fact one physiologist suggests one thing and other physiologist suggest the opposite, that sort of leads me to think that basically, we just don't really understand what's going on in our body yet.  And if I have a choice to listen to 2 physiologists, I'd opt to listen to the one who had done it himself and what he did actually won him 3 Olympic gold medals, 2 Commonwealth Games gold medals, 8 world records.

Is there a list of names out there somewhere of runners who had success off 'relatively low mileage'?  So when someone doesn't want to run much, they just say "oh yeah!?!?  Well (insert name from list) trained this way and they were successful!"