Forums >General Running>Fix that Fade
Remember it's not the pace but the effort. If you are trying to run tempo pace but you think it's not what it should be because of the hills, I'd say that's irrelevant because the money is being deposited in the bank anyway.
Or you could find a shorter out-and-back or loop, then do it more than once (for your tempo workout). MRP is probably a little boring to do 4 laps, but that greenway might be just the ticket.
"I want you to pray as if everything depends on it, but I want you to prepare yourself as if everything depends on you."
-- Dick LeBeau
On the road again...
That's what I'm learning. One week the tempo pace is a bit slower or faster than the previous week, but I can tell the effort is staying fairly consistent.
I write. I read. I run. One time, I ran a lot on my 50th birthday.
Paul
Why is it sideways?
I'm not a genius when it comes to decoding this stuff, so when you get better responses later I won't be offended if you think I'm completely wacky. If I just look at the mileage factor, I'd say you should be able to trounce your current PR. Your last 6 weeks-ish of long runs all seem to be the same (14 miles, roughly 9:30 pace), and most of your workouts seem to vary between 9:15-10:00 average pace (some have Garmin import, some don't, so I don't know the "whole" picture). It looks like you rarely if ever run any faster than 9:00/mile pace. While I think you can train mostly at 9:30 pace and race a HM at 7:30 pace (if only because in my experiment of one I've done it), I think you probably do need to add in faster running occassionally. If you don't ever run fast, it's probably difficult to do it for an extended period of time. The majority of my runs were in the 9:30/mile range, but I had tempo runs, fartleks, long runs with fast finishes (varying from 2-4 miles of fast running at the end of a run), hill workouts, etc. I think adding in some faster varieties of runs will enable you to maintain a faster pace. As it is now, you're trying to run faster for 13 miles than you almost ever do in training. That's gotta get tough at mile 8-9, as you find. I think if you keep the mileage level where you're at now and add in some faster paced workouts, you'd be quite surprised at what you find is possible on race day. Good luck!
I'm not a genius when it comes to decoding this stuff, so when you get better responses later I won't be offended if you think I'm completely wacky.
If I just look at the mileage factor, I'd say you should be able to trounce your current PR.
Your last 6 weeks-ish of long runs all seem to be the same (14 miles, roughly 9:30 pace), and most of your workouts seem to vary between 9:15-10:00 average pace (some have Garmin import, some don't, so I don't know the "whole" picture).
It looks like you rarely if ever run any faster than 9:00/mile pace. While I think you can train mostly at 9:30 pace and race a HM at 7:30 pace (if only because in my experiment of one I've done it), I think you probably do need to add in faster running occassionally. If you don't ever run fast, it's probably difficult to do it for an extended period of time.
The majority of my runs were in the 9:30/mile range, but I had tempo runs, fartleks, long runs with fast finishes (varying from 2-4 miles of fast running at the end of a run), hill workouts, etc. I think adding in some faster varieties of runs will enable you to maintain a faster pace. As it is now, you're trying to run faster for 13 miles than you almost ever do in training. That's gotta get tough at mile 8-9, as you find.
I think if you keep the mileage level where you're at now and add in some faster paced workouts, you'd be quite surprised at what you find is possible on race day.
Good luck!
This post is cash-money.
Thanks Clive, I recently ran 10 loops in MRP and probably left a part of my brain there that day. I did have a decent run on the Greenway at Lunch today. Can add a decent hill and 2 miles if I take the Golf course spur, a perfect 1 hour mid day run.
Anyway I am not going to worry too much about this one race, After all it was 4 minutes faster than last year on that course. I was just surprised to see 3 different paces on that race, miles 1-4 at 8:00, 4-8 at 8:30 and the final 5 miles at 8:50-9:00, as if a switch was thrown every 4 miles, maybe it was the relay points that did that (how's that for a imaginative excuse?).
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... Tempo runs - partly for the physical benefit, but just as importantly to better cope mentally with the discomfort that I should expect when racing, especially shorter distances.
Tempo runs - partly for the physical benefit, but just as importantly to better cope mentally with the discomfort that I should expect when racing, especially shorter distances.
I never think about this aspect of them - interesting.
... Core strength - lugging this long body around my form deteriorates when I'm tired and particularly going up hills. Weight - a big one for me
Core strength - lugging this long body around my form deteriorates when I'm tired and particularly going up hills.
Weight - a big one for me
Probably more bang for the buck if you just start starving that horse.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
And here I thought long runs will fix that, hence the 14 mile runs. Will add some hills at the end and fast finish the other times. Tempos on hilly routes are an issue I need to figure out.
Long runs are good too. For long runs I've come to think that it matters a lot more how you run the second half than the first half.
When I started out marathon running I used to set off on my long runs at a pretty strong pace... and sometimes by the end I'd be doing the death shuffle. That's really not the way to do it... better to start easily, finish well. Or at least - run most of the second half strongly - I quite like to have a couple of gently km at the very end to cool down. If you find you're completely wiped out at the end of your long runs you're either doing them too fast, or they're a bit long for you.
In terms of pacing I don't worry too much about the pace in the first half... depends a bit on how I feel on the day, but the second half I try to run somewhere around 10% slower than marathon pace. Sometimes I'll do it at marathon pace instead which, like the tempo runs builds confidence that you can actually run for a sustained period at your target pace. But the key thing is running well at the end, so that you're not conditioning yourself to get into the habit of slowing down at the end of races.
A lot of what you read about training is about physiological effects... VO2 Max, Lactate threshold, glycogen storage, yadda-yadda. Whilst all of this stuff is interesting, running is also about a state of mind - when it gets tough I think it really helps if you truly believe that you can do what you've set out to do... and part of the point of training is to do sessions that make you think - "yeah - that was good - if I can do that then for sure I can run 13 miles in 100 minutes" ... or whatever your target is.
Aside from adding some speed/variety to your running, as mentioned above, I'm going to make an endorsement for the medium long run (MLR) during the middle of the week. This marathon training cycle I've made a commitment to getting in a run 3/4 as long as my weekend long run during the middle of the week. This has really solidified my endurance and has further eliminated the fade. It can be a pain to schedule but, if you can manage it, could pay you nice dividends.
So I ran a Tempo 8 miles last night, at what turned out to be 30 seconds slower than my Half Marathon Pace, did not wear a Garmin, but I think 2-3 miles in the middle were faster. That was a tough workout, got nauseous at then end, and today legs feel like I ran a race yesterday. Not sure if I can actually run this whole run at HM pace, at least not yet, will try and run one of these every week and add a mile or 2 to make it a MLR.
An 8 mile tempo run, I think, is way too long, and won't really give you the benefit of a shorter, faster one. I think you want to start with 3 miles at a little slower than 10k pace. Throw a warmup and cooldown mile on either side and you've got a nice 5 mile run with 3 miles of tempo that shouldn't leave you feeling beat up the next day.
The longest tempo I've done to this point is 5.
An 8 mile tempo run, I think, is way too long, and won't really give you the benefit of a shorter, faster one. I think you want to start with 3 miles at a little slower than 10k pace. Throw a warmup and cooldown mile on either side and you've got a nice 5 mile run with 3 miles of tempo that shouldn't leave you feeling beat up the next day. The longest tempo I've done to this point is 5.
I'd like to add that 8 miles of tempo running can be beneficial. However, you need to build up to that distance and have a substantial base to support it. And, unless you're an animal doing this week in and week out could dig you into a hole of fatigue. You also don't need to run the 8 miles consecutively. You do something like 4 x 2 miles at a comfortably hard pace with a some recovery jogging between each segment.
It's good to mix up the distances of the tempos (shorter & faster, longer & slower, repeated shorter segments to make a longer run, etc).
What you focus on depends on what race you're training for.
Prince of Fatness
That was a tough workout, got nauseous at then end, and today legs feel like I ran a race yesterday.
Forget about the numbers .... tempos are not supposed to feel like this.
Think "comfortably hard" and let the numbers take care of themselves.
Not at it at all.
Kind of merging Daniels and Macmillan ... Daniels likes tempo runs to be in the 20 to 40-45 (can't remember) minute range. Macmillan talks about stretching them out and renames them steady-state workouts. Both guys advocate slowing the pace as the workout lengthens. Daniels even presents a chart with "tempo pace" (which is the 20min pace) and various slower paces corresponding to longer timed tempo runs. Long way of saying that 8mi @ tempo pace is too high an effort compared to what Daniels describes as "tempo".
I'll again plug the progressive or fast-finish runs. TT had me doing them in the 8-12 mile range: first half easy pace, second half gently quickening. The idea isn't to be going 5k race pace at the end, but just to build over the tired portion of the run and get your mind used to bearing down incrementally more as you go. I really liked them, and I think they were helping me negative-split my races.
I noticed a couple things that I am not sure were addressed in this thread. I think you did your last long run too close to race day. If you were just training through and had another more important race than this is o.k. Also, you did a pretty tough fartlek pretty close to race day. I realize it was short, but it was much faster than you usually runs, so it may have caused some fatigue going into the race. And finally, you took two full days off after that workout and before the race, and I think that may have made you a bit stale going into the race.
All of the advice that I see is great. Since you spend quite a bit of time on the treadmill, I would suggest doing some of the suggested workouts there. This way you can control the pace and effort. Progression runs are very easy to do on the treadmill as you can increase the pace very gradually throughout your run. Same with tempos, hit the pace and hold, or start a bit slower than tempo pace and finish just a bit faster. Building into the pace is much easier then trying to nail it right from the start.
My favorite thing to do on the treadmill is fartlek. You can get used to running at a faster pace for short periods of time and eventually you will be able to hold those paces for much longer intervals.
One example that I like is, 2min fast 2min slow. You can probably already handle 8mph for the fast and 6mph for the recovery with a good warmup. I try and get about 3 miles worth of intervals in so that would be around 10-12 repeats of 2min. Additionally, I also add speed throughout the intervals. So if 8mph is the goal avg then start at 7.8 and finish at 8.2 and increase the pace every 2-3 intervals. Teach your body to finish fast. Just my 2 cents.