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What do you feel after a long run @ MP? (Read 538 times)

    Last Sunday I tried my 16-mile long run with 10 miles @ MP. It didn't feel good at all. I had to keep pushing after 4 miles at MP. I managed to get 9 miles done. I think the pace was too fast for me. The problem is that I haven't decided what pace I am going to run in May, so I am trying various paces to see if I could maintain it. My first marathon goal is 3:30. I think I could probably make 3:20, which is what I was trying.

     

    I would like to know other experiences, so I measure if my pace is way too fast and I should adjust it.

     

    My question is what you all feel when running your marathon pace on your long run. Do you feel a strong finish? Do you feel that you could run at the same pace for many more miles? Do you have to push in the middle?

    5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)


    And in the end...

      Generally speaking, setting your goal MP based on how you feel at a given pace during a long run in training is probably not the best idea.  A more common way is to run a shorter distance race, preferably at least 10km (longer is better), then use an equivalency chart to show a correlating marathon time.  McMillan Running Calculator is the one most frequently referenced.

       

      If you don't have a recent race time, and/or don't have a local race you can enter, you can always run a time trial by yourself and use that... with the understanding that you probably won't go as fast as you would in a real race situation.

       

      For the marathon, the equivalency charts assume a runner is properly trained for the distance.  I believe the 'standard' used by McMillan assumes a 70mpw training load.  If you are running less, it would be a good idea to temper the equivalency time.

      ------------------------

      The GITM is moot.

        Is this your first marathon? Just based on a quick glance at your log I don't think you are ready to be doing MP runs yet. If you are trying to decide between marathon goal times that are 10 minutes apart you are basically have no clue what you're capable of.

         

        I agree with MattM--if you want to race a marathon for time, not just to finish, then I would recommend getting a lot more experience at racing from 10k to half marathon.

         

        To answer  your question: it depends. Some days in training my MP runs have felt easy, some days they have felt impossible, and usually they were somewhere in between. Generally I had to concentrate pretty hard to maintain MP, especially in the middle miles.

        Runners run.

          Yes. It is my first marathon. I have no clue what my MP is or what 26.22 miles mean either.

           

          Because of my injury a few weeks ago, my training is not quite consistent. I have only 8 weeks left. I am using Pfitz 12/55 at the moment. It is the MP time. There is another MP long run next week. Then that is. No more MP run.

           

          I am planning to turn my Thursday LT run this week into a 10K trial to see what my MP is.

          5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

            I've been meaning to check out my progress on my MP Tempo runs under the Hanson plan so this gave me an excuse to do it.

             

            Here's my MP Tempo runs so far this year.  They start with only 5 miles at MP and progress up to 10 miles at MP at the end.  I'm at 9 miles at MP right now and generally do 2 miles warmup and 1 mile cool down that slows the average pace down some, but also drops the avg HR down some.

             

            <colgroup><col width="66" /> <col width="71" /> <col width="60" /> <col width="61" /> <col width="36" /> <col span="2" width="50" /> <col width="80" /> <col width="42" /> <col width="74" /> </colgroup>
            Date ▼ Type Distance Duration Pace Avg HR % Max Miles @ MP Temp Comments
            1/3/2013 MP Tempo 7.1 mi 1:03:13 8:59 161 83.0%                   5.0 28  
            1/17/2013 MP Tempo 8.1 mi 1:12:03 8:57 157 80.9%                   6.0 55  
            1/25/2013 MP Tempo 8.1 mi 1:12:36 8:56 158 81.4%                   6.0 58  
            1/31/2013 MP Tempo 9.1 mi 1:21:48 9:00 154 79.4%                   6.0 58  
            2/5/2013 MP Tempo 10.3 mi 1:31:26 8:56 162 83.5%                   7.0 68 Hills
            2/14/2013 MP Tempo 10.3 mi 1:31:17 8:55 157 80.9%                   7.0 59 Hills
            2/22/2013 MP Tempo 10.4 mi 1:32:22 8:55 154 79.4%                   7.0 44 Hills
            2/28/2013 MP Tempo 10.6 mi 1:32:37 8:45 153 78.9%                   8.5 47  GPS .5 short
            3/14/2013 MP Tempo 10.7 mi 1:36:57 9:03 160 82.5%                   8.0 79  
            3/22/2013 MP Tempo 12.2 mi 1:47:08 8:49 157 80.9%                   9.0 57 Hills

             

            Temperature affects me quite a bit being a bigger guy, so you can see on warm days my HR runs a bit higher and on cool days it runs a little lower.

             

            The thing is that the way the plan works and ramps your miles up, I think that some of those first runs with only 5 or 6 miles at MP were actually tougher than some of these last runs with 8 or 9 miles at MP.  With that said the 2nd to last run in 79 degrees on a flat course sucked and my last one at 57 degrees on a hilly course was really enjoyable.

             

            My goal MP is 8:45 and it is based on using the race equivalent calculators, but I tend to have a hard time keeping all my miles that slow on these runs.  Typically I end up running my MP miles in the 8:35 to 8:40 range.   I feel that my fitness level has increased quite a bit with the extra volume that I've been running the last couple months.  Hopefully enough that I'll be able to maintain that 8:45 pace for 26.2 miles!

            Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

            Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27

              Thanks for sharing, npaden. I can see your progress.

               

              I was thinking if I ran at that pace and felt so difficult, there is no way I could hold that pace for the hole marathon. I don't know how much I can improve for another 8 weeks and some speed workout. 8:00 pace is probably more realistic for me.

              5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

                Went back and looked again and this shows the results a lot better I think.  The last 2 columns are my pace on the last mile of the MP section and my avg HR on that last mile.  That matches up pretty closely to how I felt about those runs.  That run on 3/14 sucked.  It was windy and hot and I didn't carry any water on it.

                 

                <colgroup><col width="66" /> <col width="60" /> <col width="61" /> <col width="36" /> <col span="2" width="50" /> <col width="64" /> <col width="42" /> <col span="2" width="64" /> </colgroup>
                Date ▼ Distance Duration Pace Avg HR % Max MP miles Temp Pace Avg HR
                1/3/2013 7.1 mi 1:03:13 8:59 161 83.0%              5.0 28 8:39 169
                1/17/2013 8.1 mi 1:12:03 8:57 157 80.9%              6.0 55 8:46 162
                1/25/2013 8.1 mi 1:12:36 8:56 158 81.4%              6.0 58 8:27 164
                1/31/2013 9.1 mi 1:21:48 9:00 154 79.4%              6.0 58 8:24 165
                2/5/2013 10.3 mi 1:31:26 8:56 162 83.5%              7.0 68 8:34 171
                2/14/2013 10.3 mi 1:31:17 8:55 157 80.9%              7.0 59 8:05 169
                2/22/2013 10.4 mi 1:32:22 8:55 154 79.4%              7.0 44 8:29 166
                2/28/2013 10.6 mi 1:32:37 8:45 153 78.9%              8.5 47 8:36 159
                3/14/2013 10.7 mi 1:36:57 9:03 160 82.5%              8.0 79 8:39 173
                3/22/2013 12.2 mi 1:47:08 8:49 157 80.9%              9.0 57 8:30 166

                Age: 46 Weight: 200 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 43:59; 5K 21:27


                I'm back!

                  mikey, he's on a Pfitz plan that calls for this workout; a bunch of us recommended this plan a while back -- I was one.

                   

                  Agreed that you really need a recent 10k or half time to get a calibration here. A time trial can serve in principle, but it is very difficult for most of us to get race-day performance at a time trial. If it were me I'd sacrifice a scheduled long run, find a half marathon, race it hard, and add a few miles warm up / cool down. Your marathon is in May; you have plenty of time to recover.

                   

                  Training for my first marathon, on the old Pfitz 24/55 plan, I found the MP workouts to be the hardest, and I botched both of them (made up the 2nd one later -- or maybe there were three scheduled, don't recall). You did better than I did on my first try. I was very disheartened by that workout, and came close to abandoning my goal (BQ, 3:15). But I did have a half time that pointed to maybe 3:15, so I stuck it out, and when the day came, ran 3:12.

                   

                  Don't let a single bad workout get you down, especially this one. Especially your first time around, it's a killer.

                    Thanks bhearn. That is an encouraging reply.

                     

                    I wish I could find one. The only HM race I could find is on the same day as my marathon. I guess that would be too late to try.

                     

                    Next Sunday I will have 15 mi with 12 MP. I will use the opportunity to do a HM trial.

                    5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)


                    HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                      A 10-mile race might be almost as good as an HM.

                      It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                      Happy

                        David,

                        The race time calculators/predictors were very accurate predictors for me at the 5K, 10K, and 1/2 Marathon distances when I used them a year ago, but they were overly optimistic in predicting my Marathon time last Fall (about 6 minutes faster than actual).  I acknowledged that it was an overly optimistic marathon predictor at the time, given that I didn't have a huge training base to begin with, and I set my expectations accordingly.  However, I still used the "marathon pace" that was suggested by these calculators for some of my MP training runs last year, and I was able to finish my training and the marathon comfortably.

                         

                        Based on your 5K time last September (which is a more conservative estimate than your 7K time in November), your marathon pace (from McMillan's calculator) would be 7:47 min/mile (3:24 finish). You just ran 9 miles at a 7:35 pace, and although it seemed difficult for you, maybe you're not too far off. Maybe back it down to the 7:47 pace and see how it feels. On race day, an 8:00 min/mile actual marathon pace (3:30 finish) seems very doable (6 minutes off of predicted, very similar to my recent experience), and certainly a respectable first marathon time.

                         

                        Best of luck.

                        "Strawberry cheesecake is my absolute favorite thing to eat after a marathon."  -- Meb Keflezighi

                          Thanks Bob. I will certainly consider your advice. I just checked your training for your marathon in October. It looks like I am on your level at that time. The difference is that my base may not as strong as yours as I got Achilles injury and had 5 weeks break. Before the injury, I had run at about 7:30 pace for 8 and 10 miles (total 14 and 16 miles). It was easier but of course the route was much flatter than the one on last Sunday.

                           

                          I am going to try 6:45 this Thursday to see if I can hold it for 10K.

                          5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)

                          DoppleBock


                            You got 9 miles done - Great.  Your training has been inconsistent ~ so you might not have been ready for this workout, but lets assume you are and you are going to stick with it.  The difference between this workout sucking and going well can be 6 seconds per mile.  So my suggestion would be slow down a little for the next one ~ Try 6 seconds per mile slower.

                             

                            After you have trained and ran a few more marathons, you will realize that one workout by itself is not enough data to draw a conclusion ~ it may be pointing toward a theory that needs to be further explored.  Maybe you were not recovered enough before the MP workout.  Maybe you just had an off day, maybe it was too fast.

                             

                            But if I get to decide, I would go with the slow down 6 seconds per mile = approximately 157 seconds slower for the marathon ~ 3:22:37 pace.

                             

                            Last Sunday I tried my 16-mile long run with 10 miles @ MP. It didn't feel good at all. I had to keep pushing after 4 miles at MP. I managed to get 9 miles done. I think the pace was too fast for me. The problem is that I haven't decided what pace I am going to run in May, so I am trying various paces to see if I could maintain it. My first marathon goal is 3:30. I think I could probably make 3:20, which is what I was trying.

                             

                            I would like to know other experiences, so I measure if my pace is way too fast and I should adjust it.

                             

                            My question is what you all feel when running your marathon pace on your long run. Do you feel a strong finish? Do you feel that you could run at the same pace for many more miles? Do you have to push in the middle?

                            http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                            2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                             

                              I am planning to turn my Thursday LT run this week into a 10K trial to see what my MP is.

                               

                              If this were a race, then you could do the following:  take your PACE from the 10K in seconds per mile, divide by two, convert back to minutes:seconds.  This is now an estimate of your marathon time in hours:minutes.  It is slightly more conservative than other pace calculators out there, which is more realistic for a first-time marathoner.  It sounds like a really stupid thing that shouldn't work, but a 10K time is fairly close to lactate threshold, making it a good benchmark, and the time, distance, and correction factor (the d2/d1 exponent is 1.0933) all just fall out.

                               

                              Example:  Suppose you run 10K in 43:27.  That is 7 min/mile pace ==> 420 sec/mile.  Divide by 2:  210secs.  Convert to minutes:seconds, 3:30.  This is your marathon goal time, 3:30:00.

                              2013 H1:  7 hours/week base.  Q3: Train for goal race.  Q4:  Goal Race.

                                What struck me about the Long Run was the pace of the first 6 miles.  It looks like you were doing those at 8:10/mi, yet so many of your "easy" runs in the couple preceding weeks have been slower than that.  Make the first miles as easy as possible and keep your energy reserves for the MP miles.

                                I just did my first Marathon on Pfitz 18/55.  Trying to figure out pace was a struggle for me as well because I had no other races under my belt.  I experimented a little and did the workouts based on a 4:00 finish.  The 18/55 plan eases into the MP runs a little more than 12/55, so my fitness level was able to adapt.  But you are early (week 3?), so see how other paced miles go - not just the long MP miles but also the shorter 15K paced miles.  I plugged my goal 4:00 into McMillen to get the 15K paces for those and was able to handle them more often than not.

                                Also are you refuelling?  At some point my long runs started to suck (12-13 miles maybe, I'd have to check).  I started to add gels on the long runs and definitely saw the difference.

                                Full: 3:48:01

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