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Fuel belt immobilization (Read 1364 times)

    Nobby, You need some more trail running experience, esp. in Alaska. Wink  How fast does water freeze at -30F? Do you really have water fountains running in MN in winter?

    AKTrail:

     

    You are right!!  They can't be available, can they?  But then again, with all the years of running in MN and dealing with runners here in MN, I've never heard of any complaint about not having water fountain along the running routes.  Also, frankly, I never ever thought about getting water on my long run on weekend.  Wonder why...

     

    I don't think, just because we didn't have something back in the olden days and that we have it available now that those things are "good" or "necessary".  Thick bulky and rigid shoes come to mind.  Over the years, and still, people keep saying you need cushion and stability...until a professor from Harvard threw a question.  Now barefoot running and minimalist shoes had become a fast growing fad.  They never had those fancy stability shoes of extra gadgets for extra cushion back in the olden days but they ran alright and they weren't suffering extra.  As a matter of fact, they probably weren't getting injured as much as people today.

     

    You just need to find a belt that works for you - or better yet a pack, so you can run for hours. Wink  I know what you're saying, but you're coming from a perspective where 2 hrs or so is a long run.

     

    This is true and also something I'm very curious about right now.  You are correct too, that many people today, who are training for a marathon, had gotten into the territory of ultra-marathoning because of the length of duration that they run.  With that, different hydration and diet strategy may be necessary.  But I guess I still maintain that you really don't, and perhaps shouldn't, go too much beyond 3-hours in training to prepare for a full marathon and working on all the other elements of development, not just the distance, is necessary for a good successful marathon and personally I would worry about those things before worrying about how much water you should carry on your long run and how you get it.  Just my personal opinion...

      Nobby wrote:

      You are right!!  They can't be available, can they?  But then again, with all the years of running in MN and dealing with runners here in MN, I've never heard of any complaint about not having water fountain along the running routes.  Also, frankly, I never ever thought about getting water on my long run on weekend.  Wonder why...

       

      Ask the runners in this race about water. Wink   It's a race in MN that started Mon morning.

      http://www.arrowheadultra.com/index.php

       

      I think I agree with you about people using too many things, esp. for short races, these days. Based on some forums (more in RW), I think some races are like gadget fashion shows. Wink   But don't the Olympics have aid stations for marathon, and they're only running a bit over 2 hrs. So some people think that fluids are needed for races, even when not much over 2 hrs. And most people advise you to practice these things in training. Some of it is definitely overdone - like when someone asks about what mile post  to start drinking or eat a gel - in a 10k. Wink

       

      Interestingly, we were discussing shoes after Sat's race. Apparently, icebug or similar company has come out with a minimalist shoe with ice traction. The guy who saw them indicated you'd probably get frostbite in cold weather, but they'd be good near +20F.. (our race was in -30F and he'd been training for a couple winter ultras at -40F). I'll confess to not knowing what eskimos used to wear or if they even ran. A lot of Alaska travel is done by river - boat in summer, dog teams in winter.

       

       

      Nobby wrote:

      But I guess I still maintain that you really don't, and perhaps shouldn't, go too much beyond 3-hours in training to prepare for a full marathon and working on all the other elements of development, not just the distance, is necessary for a good successful marathon and personally I would worry about those things before worrying about how much water you should carry on your long run and how you get it.  Just my personal opinion...

       

      I partly agree with you on this. But if the runner is going to be out there for 4+hrs, then part of the basic preparation is dealing with hydration and other issues. How many people received emergency treatment at Chicago a few years ago? What I'm saying is that a slower runner may need more kinds of race preparation than typical training plans provide - namely how to deal with hydration, etc. No, not drink 1 gal of water before you start, then a quart at every aid station Wink  - but how to recognize hydration issues. It's not easy, even for medical personnel since hyponatremia and dehydration have similar symptoms. It's like another chapter is needed. I'm not suggesting it should be in basic marathon plans, but perhaps a suggestion that those runners should look at training for longer races for the additional prep.

       

      If I were a new runner training for a flat road marathon and expected to take 6 hrs to finish, would a long run of 3 hrs adequately prepare me for that - in the sense of not to have a miserable time? I'm guessing no, BUT there's no way I'd want to pound city pavement for 3 hr, let alone 6 hr, so I'm not going to test it. Wink I do remember some of my first 4hr runs, and I really wouldn't have been happy being out there another 2 hrs - even on trails above treeline, one of my favorite places. It was hot then also.

       

      I'm just going back in my mind over my own training and where I hit hurdles, but I was on trails, so had an interest in continuing. Somewhere around 2hrs (that was just before I moved to trails), then 4 hrs were hurdles for me initially. 4-hrs was a stumbling block while recovering from surgery (colon, so it probably affected endocrine system a bit).

       

      You'll probably suggest that more training would shorten a runner's race time. To a point. But how much improvement could you expect for a 60+ yo runner  to convert a 6-7.5 hr marathon time to 3-4 hr? (oh, wait, women's CR is over 3 hrs for our most established marathon)  Do you just tell slow people you shouldn't train for this distance, even when they can run / walk further? Some races do that, some welcome even the slowest folks. And at least one of these that accommodates slow folks has its 50th running this year, so it's not a newbie phenomenon. I think some of the finish times in 1963 were 6+ hrs (3500ft of up, 3500ft down, some trail, some road).

       

      Short version: I'm not sure if a general marathon plan should expect to cover all circumstances, but rather state the assumptions. If a runner doesn't fit those assumptions, then use another plan. Just some thoughts.

      "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


      Black-Toe-Nailed

        Camelback style water carriers are better, but they're also slightly overkill when you only need a few hundred ml of water. Also they can be a bit hot.

         

        No way!

         

        They are extremely handy.

         

        I take out the bladder of my Nathan to use it as a normal mini-backpack when I go for my weekly barefoot / huaraches training. I carry the huaraches in the backpack and when I swap my shoes I can carry the normal trainers one in the backpack and the other one attached to the straps.

         

        I also use to carry a plastic bag as the woods and fields where I train with huaraches are indeed extremely dangerous minefields thanks to the free running cows that live there (huge ones!).

         

        On my pre-dawn runs, specially in the winter I use it to carry my gloves, hat and balaclava when I heat up or to carry dry spare ones. I have also attached some extra safety led-lamps to it to improve my impersonation of a running Christmas tree.

         

        I don't care if I look weird... in any case just a little bit weirder than any of us in leggings and running clothes, LOL.

        --

        "If one can stick to the training throughout the many long years,
        then will power is no longer a problem. It's raining? That doesn't matter.
        I am tired? That's besides the point. It's simply that I just have to."

        Emil Zatopek

           

          Relaxation is one of the most important things in good running.  One of the worst things you can do for that is to hold something in your hand(s) when you run.  When you clinch your fists, you tense up your arm.  You clinch your fist and your shoulders get tensed up; you tense up hour shoulders and you start to sway.  You will not only waste a lot of energy but also screw up good running form.  In that respect, holding a water bottle while running is probably one of the worst things you can do for your comfortable and effective running. 

           

           

          I think Nobby just implied that most ultrarunners have really terrible and inefficient running form.  Big grin

           

           

          As far as the arguments that you don't need that much hydration, I'll simply try to point out that this is risky. Things can happen, the day can be hotter than you thought, all manner of things can contribute to more dehydration than you expected. At some point this is really not good for you if it happens.

            I use a hand held when I carry water. It's the most comfortable way.

             

            MTA: I found it did not hinder my running form:

             

            alevansal


              I've run in Singapore before and I know how humid it is.  But actually humidity and dehydration may not be as closely related.  When it's so humid, your sweat wouldn't evaporate as much; in other words, your skin would stay wet and, because of that, you won't be dehydrating as much.  As a matter of fact, you feel uncomfortable NOT because you are dehydrating but because, because of lack of water evaporation of the skin, you keep the heat within.   

               

              I'm not sure I agree with this statement.  I'd rather think that yes, heat + high humidity does lead to dehydration precisely because your sweat isn't evaporating.  Since your sweat isn't evaporating, your body isn't being cooled.  Since it isn't being cooled, you're going to sweat more.  Evaporation rate of sweat does not directly affect how much you sweat, but your body temperature does.  You don't stop sweating because your previous sweat hasn't evaporated.  And if your sweat isn't evaporating, pouring water over your body isn't going to help (unless it's colder than your body temperature), as the water isn't going to evaporate either, because the air is already saturated with moisture.  It's the evaporation that cools your body, not having moisture on your skin. 

               

              Having done 20 mile runs in Florida summers for the past 10 years, I know a body can dehydrate pretty easily in hot & humid condtions.  On more than one occasion, I have lost more than 5 lbs on a 20 mile run in which I made no potty stops and consumed at least 32 ounces of water over the course of the run (which yes, was less than 3 hours).  That weight loss is a pretty clear sign of fluid loss (ie., dehydration).

               

              So yes, in the summer, I often run with a waist pack to hold a water bottle.  Unfortunately, it does not stay on my hips - I have to wear it on the smallest part of my torso, which is my waist, for it to stay in place.  Even then it bounces a good bit when the bottle is full unless I cinch the belt pretty tight.  I am glad of the marketing gimmick which has lead to water belts, as having it gives me the freedom to run where I like, rather than where I have dropped water bottles or where there are water fountains (there aren't any where I live).  I also like the freedom from having to take the time to drop water bottles.  And no, I do not carry a water bottle for shorter runs or if the temperature/humidity doesn't dictate that I do something to replinish fluids while I'm running.  I ran 12 miles this morning without fluids, but I would never do so in August or September unless I wanted to feel like crap and suffer head spins and possibly pass out.

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