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On top of all this I have another goal. in 2013, after I ran the half, I bought the first beer on offer to over 20000 runners when they started serving at 7am. This year when I pulled up to the beer stand after the full the guy told me I got the first beer for the day. I've got similar goals for 2015.
And this is why I love you
I want to do it because I want to do it. -Amelia Earhart
Lots of great advice here already. I did Goofy a couple of times with, apparently very modest (ahem Julia!), goals of sub-2 and sub-4.
My memory sucks, but the one notable thing I recall on Sunday both times was that around mile 13 I truly felt like I was in the latter stages of finishing a marathon. From 13 on felt to me like any mile after 22 in a regular marathon. So a modest half is a good idea. For me anyway. The mental game starts early on Sunday.
I pampered myself all day Saturday. If that's an option I'd go for it, along with WG's suggestions on icing, compression and nutrition options. I agree that protein really has no meaning at this point. I just made sure to eat plenty of carbs and not much fiber.
Just looked for my Goofy notes, but there weren't any. Although I gave 2008 pretty low Quality and Effort numbers, and 2009 much higher numbers. Not sure why. Maybe the wisdom of age, I dunno. And 2009 was quite a bit slower. (I was coming off running five marathongs that October though. Probably more annoyed by then that I had even signed up for another Goofy.)
I happened to wear an HR monitor for both and those numbers were interesting the later in the marathon it got, especially for 2009. I think the HR monitor must have been faulty though. Mile 20-26 averaged over 200 for the duration.
Annoying gripe that I hope has changed: I wrote afterward one year asking whether there would be any ranking of total time for the two days. "No, that is not in the spirit of the Goofy Challenge as a personal accomplishment. We will not be publishing combined numbers." Goofballs. Yes because runners hate being compared to each other. Hate it.
... around mile 13 I truly felt like I was in the latter stages of finishing a marathon. From 13 on felt to me like any mile after 22 in a regular marathon. ... And 2009 was quite a bit slower. (I was coming off running five marathongs that October though. Probably more annoyed by then that I had even signed up for another Goofy.)
... around mile 13 I truly felt like I was in the latter stages of finishing a marathon. From 13 on felt to me like any mile after 22 in a regular marathon.
... And 2009 was quite a bit slower. (I was coming off running five marathongs that October though. Probably more annoyed by then that I had even signed up for another Goofy.)
It felt like mile 22 after 13 and you still went back!?! After running 5 marathongs!?! Runners never learn their lessons do they?
I've been wondering about this. Since they published the results in table format I threw them in excel, cleaned them up a little, then combined them myself.
Here are the combined rankings for the 2014 Goofy Challenge.
There is some fascinating information here. For example:
The average marathon time for runners who ran +/- 1 minute of 90 for the half was 3:40
The average marathon time for runners who ran +/- 1 minute of 95 for the half was 3:31.
Are these just numbers or is there something to this?
X - I think that's awesome that you combined the numbers yourself. And I think that noticing the difference in 90 min half times vs 95 min half times is very telling, probably a good idea to hold back just a bit for your half if you really want a strong full.
I am signed up for the 5, 10, and half. My plan going in was to run the 5 and 10 easy and race the half, but an injury over the summer threw off my fall running and I am just now feeling strong again. I think I will use the 5K as an easy stretch out run, race the 10K and just see what I can do to enjoy myself for the half. I haven't even run anything over a ten mile long run in the past month, so I don't think realistically racing a half is anywhere near a good idea. I will be staying the next day to cheer on the marathon runners though, and I am excited about that. A friend of mine is running her very first full marathon there this year
Lots of great advice here already. I did Goofy a couple of times with, apparently very modest (ahem Julia!), goals of sub-2 and sub-4. My memory sucks, but the one notable thing I recall on Sunday both times was that around mile 13 I truly felt like I was in the latter stages of finishing a marathon. From 13 on felt to me like any mile after 22 in a regular marathon. So a modest half is a good idea. For me anyway. The mental game starts early on Sunday. I pampered myself all day Saturday. If that's an option I'd go for it, along with WG's suggestions on icing, compression and nutrition options. I agree that protein really has no meaning at this point. I just made sure to eat plenty of carbs and not much fiber. Just looked for my Goofy notes, but there weren't any. Although I gave 2008 pretty low Quality and Effort numbers, and 2009 much higher numbers. Not sure why. Maybe the wisdom of age, I dunno. And 2009 was quite a bit slower. (I was coming off running five marathongs that October though. Probably more annoyed by then that I had even signed up for another Goofy.) I happened to wear an HR monitor for both and those numbers were interesting the later in the marathon it got, especially for 2009. I think the HR monitor must have been faulty though. Mile 20-26 averaged over 200 for the duration. Annoying gripe that I hope has changed: I wrote afterward one year asking whether there would be any ranking of total time for the two days. "No, that is not in the spirit of the Goofy Challenge as a personal accomplishment. We will not be publishing combined numbers." Goofballs. Yes because runners hate being compared to each other. Hate it.
Yeah, I did pretty well. As X said, they do release the results now. I tried to crunch the numbers myself because - yeah, that's what runners do - and realized there were Dopey people messing up my bragging rights. I think there was one female master that did the Dopey and had a faster Goofy than I did.
My blog is JT Running DC. It's awesome. Guide to Washington DC Area Running Routes. Guide to the New York City Marathon. Guide to the Boston Marathon. Guide to Running Gear. Guide to Running Clothes.
I don't really know anything about running, especially back to back races, however this summer my training block of Hill-Easy-Tempo-Long really helped me out. I'm planning to do that a lot more consistently this winter and spring. I think hills are always a good thing and the Saturday tempo and Sunday long run is a great training combination.
I think something like that on a regular basis would definitely help you be ready to run a decent back to back half and full.
We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers,
On whom the pale moon gleams:
Yet we are the movers and shakers
Of the world for ever, it seems.
I think I spotted you in the results. Pretty well is an understatement. No way in hell I'm gonna stack up against the male masters like you did.
I got nothing buddy. I'll just continue to run part of these crazy ideas training runs you get and hopefully add more. You see that beer mile going down at Tufts Univ? Just saying...
If nobody chimes in you folks are at least going to be witness me chronicle my crash 5 week training and invented training plan for this thing.
The beer mile seems like such good training idea. I want to go but don't think the time works for me.
OK, this spreadsheet I made is an obsessive runners worst nightmare.
That's a good thing and might save me from myself next month because I think I have my strategy all wrong.
The reality that is setting in is that if I want a good combined time I probably need to run closer paces on both days. Normally I'd look at my own log for reference but since I've not done this before looking at other's data has to be my biggest help.
I've got 9664 Goofy runners in my 2014 spreadsheet. Of those runners I only looked at the top 500 with combined times of 5:44 (8:45 pace) or less.
Pacing
It turns out 138/500 (27.6%) ran full at same or faster pace in the full than they did in the half. The average negative split for that group was -20 seconds. 362/500 (72.4%) ran slower in the full than they did in in the half. The positive split average for that group was 31 seconds. The overall average pace split for the top 500 runners was just 14 seconds slower for the full than the half.
I ran the same exercise for the top 500 in the 2013 Goofy and noted only 17.2% ran the full as fast or faster than the half and the average pace difference was 28 seconds slower for the full.
Weather
Having been in Orlando both of these years I know exactly what the weather was like during those 4 days. In 2013 the half was not that hot but very humid and the full was somewhat hot. In 2014 the half was hot and humid and the full was not hot and very reasonable. I believe this is reflected in the above pace differences and can be seen in the following average finishing times for each race when looking at the top 500.
2014 Goofy
Average half time 1:44:31
Average full time 3:35:18
Average combined time 5:19:49
2013 Goofy
Average half time1:43:13
Average full time 3:38:51
Average combined time 5:22:04
So, weather can be a factor and I'll need to be smart and adjust strategy and expectations based on it.
Goals
Initially I was looking to run a 90 minute half and then run mid 3:20s for the full. This would give me an overall target of 4:55-5:00.
Unfortunatly pacing for that goal is backed up by less than 5% of this group. When sorted by largest and most erratic pace gaps the bottom 8 ran the half 1:31 or faster. While there may be many reasons for this it does seem wanting to run the half under 90 may be playing with fire.
A more logical scenario would be for me to pace the whole thing between 7:20 and 7:30 and finish with a faster overall target.
My next set of back to back long runs is scheduled in two weeks (3 weeks out). Perhaps I'll run the half at 7:25 pace and see what 18-20 feels like the next day.
xhristopher it seems like your plan does not seem too unreasonable to run a balanced effort based on your training. After glancing at your log, you have more than enough miles in for the effort and should be fine. Living in the area and it being my "home" race, I have done all 9 previous editions. I have come to the conclusion that best strategy is really race one day and have fun on the other, with the best opportunity for race effort being to the first day. I am not as fast as you are but my combined effort PR was in 2012 with a 1:30 half and 3:42 full (I did the full with a friend, if i had went out alone i might have been a few minutes faster but not much) and it wasn't too bad.
The trouble with the races (Goofy and Dopey) is more the logistics of travel and the early start time for the races not so much the back to back effort. Getting up at 3:30, eating, traveling to the start, waiting for the start along with the distractions of the parks etc. seem to be more impactful than the actual race effort. All the race day nerves, restless sleep and such don't seem to be bad for the one day but recovery tends not to be ideal. You have really focused on the running and back to back training and those are important but controlling the other aspects of the time before and between races are what will make racing each day successful.
Are you planning on following a typical taper or are you amending it to compensate for back to back efforts?
P.S. There are no awards for the combined time in Goofy. You might want to really race one day if you could be close to an AG award or getting a BQ or some other personal goal.
I've got no advice, but think you're goal sounds about right. 1:30HM, 3:15M. Yeah, that's within the realm of possibility.
I would think something like 1:33, 3:12. The 3:12 will be hard. But those three minutes will make more of a difference in the half -- for me, and I think you, the difference between a moderate and a pretty hard workout.
Are you planning on following a typical taper or are you amending it to compensate for back to back efforts? P.S. There are no awards for the combined time in Goofy. You might want to really race one day if you could be close to an AG award or getting a BQ or some other personal goal.
I'll probably do my regular marathon taper. I don't see how adding the half would change anything.
Yes to no awards. Disney doesn't even combine the times. It's about everyone being a winner, getting medals and shirts! I'm not shooting for AG. If I raced the half all out I'd possibly have a chance at a good AG placing but would leave nothing for the full.
You are right about the 3 minutes being the difference between moderate and hard. I figure another three minutes would be the difference between easy and moderate. If I ran 90, 93, or 95 for the half it would be well below what I know I can run so what's the difference? It's all about being able to bring it in the Marathon. I think the return for backing off on day one could pay back exponentially on day two ... or better put, I think the downside of a crash and burn on day two may go up exponentially by overdoing it on day one.
I think the downside of a crash and burn on day two may go up exponentially by overdoing it on day one.
Yes. Or to put it another way, the marathon will just become harder that much earlier, say mile 10/11 instead of 17/18.
Just did my second Goofy training weekend. This weekend I backed off on the half and picked it up on the 18 miler.
Two weeks ago:1:29:36 - 13.12:20:17 - 183:49:53 for 31.1 miles (7:24 pace)
This week:1:35:25 - 13.1 - 5:49 SLOWER2:13:42 - 18 - 6:35 FASTER3:49:07 - for 31.1 miles (7:23 pace)
Both weekends I did this after running a track session on Thursday - so 3 hard days in 4. Let's say that track session partially simulates the fatigue I will get walking around the parks and traveling for 3-4 days. Well, not really. Walking around Disney parks is brutal on your legs.
Interestingly both strategies gave a result within a minute of each other. But, in the actual race I'll still have 8.2 miles to run. So, I've got to subjectively consider which option would leave me in a better position to suffer those final marathon miles. The answer to that would be this weekend's runs. That's a good thing because I'd already recovered all the time gains from running a faster half and still have more miles to run. That means it could give a combined time of a couple minutes faster, all things being equal.
This training and test has me realizing that overall success at 39.3 is about how you run the half on day 1 and finding that sweet spot. The marathon on day 2 will be run like any other marathon, just a little slower.
Things I'll be doing are:
Overall training has been mediocre. Last weekend I missed my planned long run of 15-16 miles on Sunday but no marathon is made or broken by missing one workout. I also haven't been getting the highest weekday mileage. I'm really trying to roll on and capitalize on the base built for my fall PR marathon. I've run 9 long runs since so I'd say I'm doing ok maintenance.
No that I'm three weeks out I'll not really do much of a taper other than cut back on the weekends to 16 and 13. I'm not doing anything during the weekdays that qualifies as taxing.