Forums >Look What I Can Do!>Running with the sub-3s: unfinished business
Interval Junkie --Nobby
Do you have any indication of what caused the stress fracture? Obviously running, but was it just bad luck or are you at high risk if you repeat the same program without some modifications? If I were to put together a program to take myself from 2:59 to 2:55 it would involve ramping up mileage, intensity, and workouts which will all stress the system ... or I could drop 15 pounds. What's your plan or are you confident you can repeat your program healthy?
Do you have any indication of what caused the stress fracture? Obviously running, but was it just bad luck or are you at high risk if you repeat the same program without some modifications? If I were to put together a program to take myself from 2:59 to 2:55 it would involve ramping up mileage, intensity, and workouts which will all stress the system ... or I could drop 15 pounds.
What's your plan or are you confident you can repeat your program healthy?
So, in my bid for sub-3 from a 3:04 PR in the Fall, I did just what you suggest above.
For NYC: Peek miles were around 75. Weight was 167.
For TRM: Peak miles were 89. Weight was ~162.
(weights are from the taper, not the day before or of the marathon -- since I should be retaining more water then)
I got sick the week of the marathon, and wasn't sure I'd even run. But I rallied enough for the PR. Before getting sick I think I was probably in 2:57 or 2:56 shape.
BTW: my normal "fit" but not really running (20mpw) weight is about 180 (poor eating habits etc).
The Doc wasn't too specific. There wasn't one thing that caused the injury (hence stress fracture). He basically said, "look you're over 40. And you really pushed the limits for your body. Sometimes you luck out. Sometimes you don't. Looks like you got half-lucky in that you made it through your race."
Heck I was even doing more core than normal (read: once a week!).
My personal theory is this: I thought I had "another gear" in my running. When at limits, I'd do this thing where I slightly change my running gait on purpose. It felt like I was "dropping down a gear" or something. My center of gravity would get a little lower and I'd start engaging a few different muscles than I usually do. However, I now suspect it was really just bad form, where I'd lose the bounce in my form and start putting more impact stress on the taint/pelvis. It might be that I latched on to this theory because it's something i can better control than "go a little easier next-time."
Even so, the plan this time is to do lots more doubles. Hover around 75mi to 80. And eliminate the "extra gear" thing.
Current weight: 169.8. Going to try to hit 167lbs by Jan 1 . . . and 163 for race-day. I think going any lower might be dangerous.
That and I'm going to cross fingers. Suggestions?
2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do
My personal theory is this: I thought I had "another gear" in my running. When at limits, I'd do this thing where I slightly change my running gait on purpose. It felt like I was "dropping down a gear" or something. My center of gravity would get a little lower and I'd start engaging a few different muscles than I usually do. However, I now suspect it was really just bad form, where I'd lose the bounce in my form and start putting more impact stress on the taint/pelvis. It might be that I latched on to this theory because it's something i can better control than "go a little easier next-time." That and I'm going to cross fingers.
That and I'm going to cross fingers.
I look forward to stalking your training journey.
Speaking with my ortho re: injury he supports your personal theory - and basically explains a lot of why ppl seem to make it to the starting line of goal marathon, absolutely kill it and then find themselves injured. The last six miles you find that extra gear - but you sacrifice form and ignore all signs of pain to get to the finish line.
I will cross my fingers for you too.
Ready, go.
I'm not sure what I have for suggestions but here are some random words. Take or leave what you like...
Sounds like you have been giving it some thought. Having had my running derailed by injury for almost a half year once I was almost obsessive in making adjustments to my training so I didn't have to go thought it again. I've got so many personal rules and guidelines in my head it's almost silly. Every cycle and marathon adds to or reinforces items on the list.
Eventually I found a better rhythm of stressing my body and recovering and have improved every PR except the 5K despite lower milage and slower average training paces. I really make a point of making most of my easy days truly easy. I also try to run half of my long runs easy. Running with 3:30 - 3:45 marathoners is totally fine on these days. It's all about the endurance hit and time on feet.
Doubles sounds smart. My recent sub 3 was built upon lots of doubles. Lots of laundry too but it was easier on the body and I came out of the cycle not at all banged up, just mentally drained.
About that extra gear thing ... I know during races when extremely fatigued form can change. For me I know this when the heel of my shoe starts hitting my calf, sometimes bloodying it. Usually it takes something equal to the third mile of a hard 5K to experience this so I think that's what you are talking about. I never see this in training. Do you?
In retrospect to the marathons I ran this year, including the sub 3 that left me completely wrung out at the end, I did not experience this extra bad gear issue. Having taken 10 marathons to crack sub 3 since I started trying I've I guess I've figured out a lot of things along the way to make myself a better racer. Some of those things are weird personal things. Here are three from my list:
Running in the dark: I run a lot in the dark. When I started I tripped a lot because I wasn't picking my feet up enough. I had to either decide to pick my feet up and run with a more direct and stronger form or stop running at night. This adjustment in form has carried to all my running and I believe it makes my stride stronger, a better hill runner and faster racer.
Run over, not around hills: I make it a point not to avoid hills. Again, it makes my stride stronger. Finding hills was not an issue for you until now. Perhaps your body will enjoy not pounding down them so much in training. Who knows?
Regular Racing: I make it a point to run at minimum one race a month 100%. The distance or my fitness is irrelevant. I can't train at race pace. Not even close. This is my opportunity to give a regular dose of stress to my system physically and mentally.
Good luck man and I look forward to watching you chronicle your journey. As for me. That 2:55 bug hasn't bit me yet. I've got bites all over for lots of other things but not that.
These are good suggestions, X. I certainly welcome them.
A few of the things you mentioned were unfortunately part of the cycle that injured me. Not the cause. Just that add them probably won't solve anything for me either. Though, they might have kept the injury at bay long enough to complete the race.
I did a good amount of doubles that season. I also kept my easy runs around 8:30 pace. I had a 3:45 friend in town and we'd do 9:00 to 9:15. As with you, I enjoy those paces on easy days as long as I'm not alone. Trying to keep from creeping to 8:00 makes me a weird slave to my watch, where I'm glancing at it every 2mins only to see I'm too fast again. [but it's the whole reason I bought a GPS watch]. I've been doing easy runs a bit too fast lately, mostly because there have been few hard workouts. I'll need to work on that.
The last season also saw lots of hills (I'd seek them out) and lots of dirt roads. I was becoming a monster on the hills -- actually looking forward to a hilly course and steaming up those suckers. I think I'm stuck with hill repeats in Chicago, and a few long-runs out of town. But last season 40% of my runs were "challenging" hills and 50% were just "normal" hills (10% track). I think I need to check out the parking-garage scene here.
I know what you're talking about with clipping your calf. I start with my ankle and then clip the calf if I haven't corrected. That isn't the other gear I'm talking about though. This is a voluntary conversion to running on whatever I usually run on, to almost running from the pelvis. I don't really know how to explain it. Instead of feeling that my center of gravity is around my bellybutton, it feel like it's dropped down to my hip flexors. It actually, feels like my hipflexors are propelling me forward more than lifting my legs. (my hip-flexors also were weak/damanged when i got diagnosed -- maybe related).
Your regular racing is an interesting suggestion -- I was going to move in the opposite direction with the idea of protecting my investment and making sure I don't injury myself in a race by dipping into bad form or something. Or maybe I just feel really slow right now. I raced a lot between thanksgiving and Jan1 last year. Then it was all training.
I'm not sure how much more weight I could safely lose past 162lbs. Certainly, I should be at 165 already if I want to go below that. I'm just a big guy (6'3"). The NIH says I could go down to 148lbs, but I don't think I've been there since middleschool -- and I'd always been a skinny kid. My 163 goal is mostly trying to play it safe this round. I might try 159 next season. But I don't think trying to avoid injury, and not giving my body enough repair food at the same time is a good combo.
Laundry. Heh. Yeah. My wife freaked out last weekend because every hang-able surface in the apt was covered in running gear. At least wool only needs washing once every two weeks.
Yeah, I clearly don't know about that gear. I kind of follow you in theory. I've got no suggestion of how to fix it other than say don't do it. Perhaps some races where you consciously practice not doing it while running full tilt?
Have you tried that book mikeymike recommend by Dicharry?
Your wool must be nasty.
This is a voluntary conversion to running on whatever I usually run on, to almost running from the pelvis. I don't really know how to explain it. Instead of feeling that my center of gravity is around my bellybutton, it feel like it's dropped down to my hip flexors. It actually, feels like my hipflexors are propelling me forward more than lifting my legs.
Sounds like your pelvis is tipping forward because you're not getting enough hip extension. So you arch your back (probably don't even notice that) and over stride to keep from falling forward on your face.
It's what Dicharry calls the toilet bowl of doom, basically.
Runners run
See, and I thought you made the whole thing up just so people would go asking around for: "That DICK-HARRY book".
I'd need a better description, but it sounds plausible.
One from the first draft of Irish blessings that did not make the final cut.
I'm not sure what I have for suggestions but here are some random words. Take or leave what you like... Running in the dark: I run a lot in the dark. When I started I tripped a lot because I wasn't picking my feet up enough. I had to either decide to pick my feet up and run with a more direct and stronger form or stop running at night. This adjustment in form has carried to all my running and I believe it makes my stride stronger, a better hill runner and faster racer.
Sidetrack question. How did you "decide to pick my feet up and run with a more direct and stronger form"?
My attempts at trail running so far have been humbling from the perspective that I have some difficultly staying on my feet. I actually had to quit one race after falling 7 times in the first 20 miles with a not quite healed collarbone.
I've somewhat correlated my falls with not picking my feet up (the race that I fell so much had lots of tree roots, I seem to do okay with rocks). Did you actually try to pick your feet up higher with each stride on every run or did you have particular workouts that you used or what?
Age: 50 Weight: 224 Height: 6'3" (Goal weight 195)
Current PR's: Mara 3:14:36* (2017); HM 1:36:13 (2017); 10K 43:59 (2014); 5K 21:12 (2016)
Sidetrack question. How did you "decide to pick my feet up and run with a more direct and stronger form"? My attempts at trail running so far have been humbling from the perspective that I have some difficultly staying on my feet. I actually had to quit one race after falling 7 times in the first 20 miles with a not quite healed collarbone. I've somewhat correlated my falls with not picking my feet up (the race that I fell so much had lots of tree roots, I seem to do okay with rocks). Did you actually try to pick your feet up higher with each stride on every run or did you have particular workouts that you used or what?
It's hard to explain but I did make a change. I was running with a form that had my feet traveling much closer to the ground but I wouldn't call it a shuffle. I'd trip on cracks and manhole covers. Npaden, you run enough miles for your legs to be strong enough for this.
Imagine you are running in an inch or two of snow. You have to pick your foot up to travel over it, not drag them through it. Shoulders back and knees high. That's a little exaggerated but might illustrate the point. Also, when you run up a hill you have to do a little of the same. Instead of gliding your feet over the ground and letting it go down for your next stride you are lifting them and placing them down for your next stride. If there is an obstacle along the way you step over or on it than get tripped by it. I'm sure this helps my trail running too where I'm also very comfortable.
Stadjak, would bringing your shoulders and purposefully running a little more upright help your "gear?"
Well, the good thing about my "gear" is that I don't have to use it. Unfortunately, it's associated with "dig down deep" mode. I think running a bit more upright might cancel out the mode. I don't hunch over, but I suspect Mikey is right, that I'm leading with my pelvis a bit.
I would typically engage the gear to power through the end of a long run where the last 8 miles were at MP or something -- especially if I was quasi-racing Deric during the workout. Yesterday I did a 12mi with 4 @ MP and felt the desire to reach into this gear because I was struggling with the workout so I got reminded what it feels like I'm doing -- which is mostly letting go of all the stabilizing muscles around my hips; my hips start tilting back and forth like a speed-walker.
Yeah, not a great indicator that 12mi w/ 4@MP was a struggle -- wind or not. I've lost a lot of speed over the summer.
I'm living vicariously through your comeback....
Give me some info....it's been 2 weeks
Sorry, I'm about to get on a flight to Croatia, where I'll be hanging out with some Tri-guys. I'll update you when i get back. The short version is: 70mpw. Did an 18mi followed by a 6+8 the next day -- overdid it a bit. So I'm going to use these two travel days to recover a bit.
Also, Wrigs hooked me up with some good [frigg'n fast] people. More on that later.
Posting from Croatia on one of their f-ed up, kezboards
Ran todaz with the local runnerćs group. 900 pace straight up Marjan mountain. A bit slow. The guz up front thez called "The Flying Postman". He was trucking up the hill around 740 pace. I joined him on the waz down. We dropped his fellow runner about a mile in. Then the stride opened up and I could tell he was pushing. Over a flat straight we hit somewhere around 545 pace. I kept on his shoulder until the meeting point. He waited for someone who could translate to show up and then told me: "I'm 53 years old". I said, "You're a fast bastard." He laughed. He had 5 teeth missing.
Yeah, a good 15km fahrlek.
Weather is 60F and thez all waz over dress ... the clothes I'd wear for 15F. Thez were prettz concerned that I'd freeye in mz shorts.
Good times.
Best Present Ever
I just read your post in a made-up Croatian accent. (Probably Hungarian since that's what I hear more often). I noticed when I was in France last spring that keeping warms was very important. I wore shorts and a short-sleeved shirt to run -- it was around 55 most mornings. The French runners were all in spiffy Adidas track pants -- quite loose for the most part -- and long sleeved, warm tops, often with hats and gloves and even scarves as well. I'm pretty sure I didn't see another pair of shorts the whole time. I thought it was funny because I think the French often wear fewer warm clothes than Americans for the same temps. They have on a sweater and scarf when Americans would have pulled out the Northface fleece and puffy coats.