Goal of sub 17 minute 5k (Read 8206 times)

    Great post, Mikey.

     

    I thought I'd share an email I sent to a buddy who was working through some of the same issues. I've changed some of the details to suit your case. Here's the email:

     

     

     

     

     

    I swear to god it is possible to get back into college shape--even better, maybe, for me. but the dangerous thing is that the mind has not lost its college conditioning, though the body has. When we got in shape the first time, we were also teaching the mind how to read the body, how to push the body, how to disregard the suffering. This is remembered now. But then, we didn't know, and that--plus a young body free from the stresses of adult life--protected us the first time around from overtraining.


    THEN the problem was: develop runner-MIND and runner-BODY. These went together. NOW the problem is different: we already HAVE runner-mind, but NEED runner-body to match the mind. That's why I think the biggest struggle is putting a check on the runner-mind, just a bit, to allow the body to catch back up. Since runner-body is at 80%, we need to back down runner-mind to 80%, then slowly as body returns, we can let the mind return with it.


    The famous coach Tom Derderian posted the following on letsrun:

     

    You have a deep experience that the "structure" is now imbeded in your mind so you now rely on an instinct to know when to push and when to coast. You no longer need a watch or a workout to tell you what to do. 

    The key is the 8 years you have spent thinking and doing. That is priceless.

    Tom
     

     

     

    The deep-structure that Derderian is talking about is there. You couldn't get rid of it if you tried. it will haunt you, always. The deep structure knows how run the body of a 4:40 miler. But here is the question: does it know how to run the body of a 5:10 miler that's carrying 30 more pounds? Because this is the task, right now.

     

     

     


     

     

     That's a great quote too.  I was able to push myself beyond my body's limits in college, was foolish enough to do so consistently, and paid the price in injuries and illness.  I ran a lot of training runs that projected out to mid 15's for 5K - because I trained with guys who actually raced that.

     

    I'm not sure carrying all the extra weight is a bad thing...I'm sure upping the mileage will cause me to shed 10 or so but I have less body fat than I did then and am much stronger.  Back then I'd get my weight into the 163-165 range and immediately catch a nagging cold, always felt tired at that weight.  I felt better in the 170-175 range.  If I'm 185 and much stronger, I think my body may figure it out.  We'll find out, I guess :-)

       

      The Spring is probably pushing it since a lot of what you are basing your evaluation on is hypothetical.   You think you were in 16:20 shape back in college, but your best actual was over 17.  And you have the big if, IF you can get the mileage up. 

       

      In a lot of ways I'm similar to you.  I had reasonable success back in high school and college, but never really trained optimally and feel like I could have done a lot better.  I'm also generally impatient with my goals, and feel like I should be able to get back to my high school times (at least in the 5k and up) relatively quickly - when I don't, I get discouraged.  And, I've always let life's distractions (I mean priorities) get in the way.

       

      But this time around I'm taking a different approach, and I think it might help you too. Sure I have some short term time goals, but my real goal is getting consistent mileage.  If you gave me the option of going sub 17 or getting in 6 months of consistent 50-60 mile weeks, I'd take the mileage.  Each week that I hit my mileage goal I consider it an accomplishment.  And I know that getting the mileage is the only way I will really drop my times again, so in the end, by just focusing on mileage, I'm going to have a better shot at the time goals than if I focus on the times themselves.

       

      So, I recommend rearranging the priorities.  Make consistent mileage your primary goal.  Keep the sub 18 as a shorter term checkpoint.  And keep the sub 17 in the back of your mind.  Ultimately, what you want to do (and me as well) is to reach your "present day you" potential, and whatever times that produces, it is what it is.

       negative split - thanks for the point of view....am hoping that getting in the mileage will produce the result but the time goals would be what keeps me focused.  Signing up for races is a step for me since I've been mostly just doing tempo runs.  My history shows that in those few times when I actually got in the miles, the improvement came.  Its just much of the time I pushed harder on lower mileage - I know for a fact that I cannot run under 18 on 30 miles per week, but am reasonably certain I could do it with 45.

       

      Good posts all, I am hoping that I'm on the way.  My first race checkpoint is Sept. 26th, hopefully I'll have 1 or 2 40+ mile weeks under my belt.  This week's looking like low/mid 30's.

      DoppleBock


        This makes all the sense in the wolrd to me.

         

        Luckily I did not start running until I was fat and old ... so my mind knows how to handle a fat and old body. 

         

        The sub17 will not happen this year ... I am shooting for spring 2010 ... I have to many  barriers this year - But I am building a big base.

         

         

        Great post, Mikey.

         

        I thought I'd share an email I sent to a buddy who was working through some of the same issues. I've changed some of the details to suit your case. Here's the email:

         

         

         

         

         

        I swear to god it is possible to get back into college shape--even better, maybe, for me. but the dangerous thing is that the mind has not lost its college conditioning, though the body has. When we got in shape the first time, we were also teaching the mind how to read the body, how to push the body, how to disregard the suffering. This is remembered now. But then, we didn't know, and that--plus a young body free from the stresses of adult life--protected us the first time around from overtraining.


        THEN the problem was: develop runner-MIND and runner-BODY. These went together. NOW the problem is different: we already HAVE runner-mind, but NEED runner-body to match the mind. That's why I think the biggest struggle is putting a check on the runner-mind, just a bit, to allow the body to catch back up. Since runner-body is at 80%, we need to back down runner-mind to 80%, then slowly as body returns, we can let the mind return with it.


        The famous coach Tom Derderian posted the following on letsrun:

         

        You have a deep experience that the "structure" is now imbeded in your mind so you now rely on an instinct to know when to push and when to coast. You no longer need a watch or a workout to tell you what to do. 

        The key is the 8 years you have spent thinking and doing. That is priceless.

        Tom
         

         

         

        The deep-structure that Derderian is talking about is there. You couldn't get rid of it if you tried. it will haunt you, always. The deep structure knows how run the body of a 4:40 miler. But here is the question: does it know how to run the body of a 5:10 miler that's carrying 30 more pounds? Because this is the task, right now.

         

         

         


         

         

        http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

        2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

         

          For me the sub 17 came as soon as I upped my mileage to 80+ a week..I ran 80+ for a month, and did track on tues and tempo on Thurs.  Ran a 16:50 on my first attempt.  I also Im one who didn't start running until a year ago and 34years old and was 247 pounds.  The secret for my was mileage.
          2010 Goals 3000 Miles 1/2 Marathon-Sub 1:20:00 Marathon-Sub 3:00

            I have my first race since July 4th set for tomorrow.  It's a certified local 5k on roads I know well.  This is the first year for the race, so I don't know what type of field to expect.  Weather is supposed to be mid 70's and a little humid at race time - definitely warmer than I'd like.

             

            I think it's rather unlikely that I'll go under 17 on this one.  More realistic is probably 17:20 or so.  I have a more consistent mileage base now than I have had in the recent past, but it's still not really a large mileage base.  And I haven't done much in the way of speedwork, so I'm not sure I can handle the speed to get under 17.  My legs have also been feeling a little heavy the past 2 weeks and I have a strain of some sort around the ball of my foot whenever I try to push off hard with the left foot.  Is that enough excuses?

             

            Still, I'm excited to give it a go as I love racing.  I won't be shooting for 17, I'm just going to go by feel for the first mile, and see where I am.  The goal is just to run the best race I can and then I'll see how much farther I have to go to get under 17.

            Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

            -------------------------------------------------------------------------

            2014 Goals:

            1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
            2. Run 5k < 16:00
            3. Hold off father time for at least another year


            On My Horse

              I ran 17:15 for the 5k at my team's XC TT, so I'm getting close.<input type="hidden" id="gwProxy" />

              "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies with in us." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

                I ran 17:15 for the 5k at my team's XC TT, so I'm getting close.

                 

                Those miles helped, huh?

                  As mentioned previously, I had a 5k this weekend.  It was my first race in a few months, so I wasn't sure exactly what to expect.  I always break fast from the line to get out of traffic then quickly settle in and let the fast people and the people who can't pace themselves quickly pass me.  After about the first 1/4 mile I was sitting on the back of a lead pack of 4.  I stayed with this group thru the first mile split, and it pulled me out at 5:25 pace.  A little faster than I wanted, but not bad.  I could feel that it would be difficult to hold that the rest of the race, but decided to keep pushing instead of backing off.  Around mile 1, the pack of 4 separated - 2 pulled ahead of me gradually, getting around 10 - 15 seconds ahead, and 1 fell back behind me.

                   

                  Second mile still felt alright, but I was starting to tire as I approached the next split.  Hit the mile 2 split in 5:27.  The third mile is ever so slightly uphill.  Not the kind of hill you would notice on a regular training run, but just enough to hurt you when you are already feeling the fade in a race.  I tried to keep pushing, but slowed a little.  Up to this point I had been keeping my eye on the leaders, but they had been maintaining the 10-15 second lead.  Right before the mile marker, the #2 runner slowed and I passed him without a fight.  Hit a 5:35 split for mile 3.

                   

                  At this point my fatigued brain mistakenly thought I had the sub-17 in the bag.  Unfortunately, my math was off.  I tried to kick in but didn't have much left.  As I got near I saw the clock at 16:56 and realized I wasn't going to get there.  Crossed in 17:02.

                   

                  Definitely pleased with the race, although it would have been nice to get 3 more seconds.  Still, that's a modern day PR, and I can't remember my high school 5k times, so it may even be a true PR.  I have another 5k lined up in 2 more weeks, so I'll be looking for 16Tight lippedx in that one.

                  Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  2014 Goals:

                  1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
                  2. Run 5k < 16:00
                  3. Hold off father time for at least another year

                    Training Week 8/31 - 9/6

                     

                    Total of 50.5 miles

                    Key workouts:

                    - 25 min tempo @ 6:04 pace on Tuesday

                    - 5k on Saturday (17:02 - see above post for details)

                     

                    Pleased with the race and my progress.  Will take another shot in 2 weeks. 


                    Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    2014 Goals:

                    1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
                    2. Run 5k < 16:00
                    3. Hold off father time for at least another year
                    flovesparko


                       Well done especially if this was a cross country event. 

                       

                      I ran 17:15 for the 5k at my team's XC TT, so I'm getting close.

                      flovesparko


                        That last post was meant for Father Russia
                        flovesparko


                          Negative_split.  Great job, sorry you missed sub 17 by two second. I'm sure you will get it next time.

                           

                          I haven't posted on this thread for a while since I thought the best I might be able to achieve would be around 17:20 (17:43 was my PR when the thread was started).  Plus my main focus this year is my fall marathon and  I was not going to do any specific 5k training.     I raced a 5K this weekend and achieved a huge PR with a time of 17:10.   I decided before the race that I would just go by feel and run hard and not for sub 17.  The race was small with 350 people but I was able to run with a group of 5 for the first mile.  I heard a split of 5:23 and instantly thought too fast for me to hold but right after that first mile we all split up. One guy took off and I was able to stay behind him (10 yards or so)  with the others dropping  behind me.  At the half way point, (out and back course), he was up by 30yds and eventually 50-70yds and that's when I notice that I had about the same distance to the guy behind me.  At that point in races, I kind of give up since I know I'm not going to catch the guy in front of me and usually the guy behind me won't catch me.  My second mile was 5:38.  Soon afterwards I thought that I could manage a huge PR so I was able to  up the pace( mile three on my GPS had 5:33), I then kicked it up slightly more for the finish.  I think with a little more training and someone to run with, I might have a chance at 16:59.   I ended up in 6th place overall.  

                           

                          As mentioned previously, I had a 5k this weekend.  It was my first race in a few months, so I wasn't sure exactly what to expect.  I always break fast from the line to get out of traffic then quickly settle in and let the fast people and the people who can't pace themselves quickly pass me.  After about the first 1/4 mile I was sitting on the back of a lead pack of 4.  I stayed with this group thru the first mile split, and it pulled me out at 5:25 pace.  A little faster than I wanted, but not bad.  I could feel that it would be difficult to hold that the rest of the race, but decided to keep pushing instead of backing off.  Around mile 1, the pack of 4 separated - 2 pulled ahead of me gradually, getting around 10 - 15 seconds ahead, and 1 fell back behind me.

                           

                          Second mile still felt alright, but I was starting to tire as I approached the next split.  Hit the mile 2 split in 5:27.  The third mile is ever so slightly uphill.  Not the kind of hill you would notice on a regular training run, but just enough to hurt you when you are already feeling the fade in a race.  I tried to keep pushing, but slowed a little.  Up to this point I had been keeping my eye on the leaders, but they had been maintaining the 10-15 second lead.  Right before the mile marker, the #2 runner slowed and I passed him without a fight.  Hit a 5:35 split for mile 3.

                           

                          At this point my fatigued brain mistakenly thought I had the sub-17 in the bag.  Unfortunately, my math was off.  I tried to kick in but didn't have much left.  As I got near I saw the clock at 16:56 and realized I wasn't going to get there.  Crossed in 17:02.

                           

                          Definitely pleased with the race, although it would have been nice to get 3 more seconds.  Still, that's a modern day PR, and I can't remember my high school 5k times, so it may even be a true PR.  I have another 5k lined up in 2 more weeks, so I'll be looking for 16Tight lippedx in that one.

                            Training Week of 9/7 - 9/13:

                             

                            Total of 51.3 miles

                            Did a hard progression run Friday with the penultimate mile at 6:12 pace and the last mile at 5:50.  Also bumped my "long" run from 9 to 10 miles.

                             

                            It took me until Thursday to feel fully recovered from last Saturday's race.  My calves were quite sore, as my legs just aren't used to speed work or my racing shoes yet.  I'm starting to mix in a little more speed and am going to use the racing shoes a few times a week to try to build that strength back.

                             

                            Next race is set for Saturday.  I'm feeling good about my chances of getting the sub 17 this time out.

                            Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            2014 Goals:

                            1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
                            2. Run 5k < 16:00
                            3. Hold off father time for at least another year


                            On My Horse

                              Bump, haven't run a 5k since the Time Trial in late August where I ran my PR, had an okay Cross Season (It is an old cliche but adjusting to college life is tough) and I've gotten in a couple good blocks of training (a little lazy over vacation so far but it looks like I'm back on track)

                               

                              I should get in a few 5ks during indoor track, and I expect to break 17 at some point in the near future.  My first meet is on the 15th, although I'm not sure what event I'm running (Either 3k or 5k) so I might be doing it very soon!

                               

                              Anyone else have any breakthroughs in the last, like, 3 months since anyone posted?

                              "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies with in us." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

                                Hey Mikeymike! Just wondered how it's going for you? Haven't seen a post in awhile, and I'm real curious how your Fall racing went. It was like reading a novel following everyone's progress! Yours was particularly interesting because, according to your training (altho it was Marathon training) it seemed like a sub-17 was a slam-dunk! Training was very similar to mine (at that age), and I was pretty consistent in the high 16's. No real speed-demon either (PR of 4:56 or so at age 38). I would be curious what kind of daily pace you average on "normal" training runs. I've seen your speed workouts and am very impressed! We averaged 70-80 mpw, and most miles were in the 6:50-6:40 area, working down to 6:30-6:20's. Speed workouts were VERY similar to yours.  I know you're not asking for advice, so sorry if I come off that way! This thread just really got me inspired! However it's working out, enjoy "Master's-hood"!!! And thanks for firing me up again!