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How much is enought for sub 18:30? (Read 2514 times)

coach-T


    I almost responded to this thread with the almost identical point of view that spaniel expresses here, and I will add, with no disrespect at all intended to our younger runners:  Now that my son is in high school and I am around high school cross country runners again for the first time in 30 years I think the young bucks really have no idea yet how to hit their limits with any kind of consistency simply because they just don't have the running and racing experience needed to do so.  For this reason I think it feels to them more "mental" and "magical" than physical.  I wish I could remember which Kenyan runner said, "The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare." 

     

    Even though I am quoting you, I want to make sure that spaniel knows I was not trying to say he did not know what he was talking about, on the contrary I was interested in his post and adding on to it for our high school runners to think about.

     

    I also have just been acquainted with high school runners again and have realized just how much they are missing mental preparation before and during a race. I believe in the other direction as well, a runner that does not know how to race (mentally) will not benefit as much from their training. Once they get some races under their belt where they start to think about their mental state and their ability to keep a pace that they mentally did not think they could, they will see the results from their training and find success. Then they are able to see exactly what their training can do for them and work harder and more focused on their goal, which I agree is to improve in any way they can.

     

    Again, this mainly shows up in high school runners; but it may even apply to others as runners that do not know what they are doing as they begin running when they are older. I often hear these runners say they get "barriers" at 20, 22, or maybe even 25 minute 5k times even though they train just as hard as someone else that can run a 5k in 18 minutes or under. I would not be surprised if these runners found better success once they focused on their mental strategy as they race, rather than just race to see what they can do (not to say there are not a million other factors). Of course some runners would rather run with this mentality, and that is fine (as long as they are not one of my runners!).

      Even though I am quoting you, I want to make sure that spaniel knows I was not trying to say he did not know what he was talking about, on the contrary I was interested in his post and adding on to it for our high school runners to think about.

       

      I also have just been acquainted with high school runners again and have realized just how much they are missing mental preparation before and during a race. I believe in the other direction as well, a runner that does not know how to race (mentally) will not benefit as much from their training. Once they get some races under their belt where they start to think about their mental state and their ability to keep a pace that they mentally did not think they could, they will see the results from their training and find success. Then they are able to see exactly what their training can do for them and work harder and more focused on their goal, which I agree is to improve in any way they can.

       

      Again, this mainly shows up in high school runners; but it may even apply to others as runners that do not know what they are doing as they begin running when they are older. I often hear these runners say they get "barriers" at 20, 22, or maybe even 25 minute 5k times even though they train just as hard as someone else that can run a 5k in 18 minutes or under. I would not be surprised if these runners found better success once they focused on their mental strategy as they race, rather than just race to see what they can do (not to say there are not a million other factors). Of course some runners would rather run with this mentality, and that is fine (as long as they are not one of my runners!).

      How do you TRAIN your mental side?  A few winters ago, I was running with this young lady around the neighborhood loop (as a precaution).  It's about 45-minutes per lap and we just did 2 laps (1:30).  It was -30F and very icy.  I looked at her and said; "Let's do one last time around a short version of this loop (about 30 minutes to make up 2-hours)."  She grumbled a bit (as I recall, she also said something like "I hate you!!") but off we went.  I told her; "This last lap is for your soul."  It probably didn't have much physiological effect; it could even be classified as "junk mile".  But that's the kind of a run that really toughens you up.  I'm a big fan of seeking cooler time of the day (in the summer) so you can actually train well.  But once in a while, it's not a bad idea to get out under the scorching sun and do some long run of 2:00~2:30.  That's the kind of a run for your heart and soul.

       

      Lorraine Moller would tell you it's "100% physical and 100% mental".  It's almost pointless to separate both.  They work hand-in-hand.  I started running twice a day when I was in high school.  It was tough to get up and get out at 6:00AM but every time I was lacing up in the dark, I know I was training my mental toughness.  But "lacing up at 6:00AM" was not the only thing I was doing either.

        How do you TRAIN your mental side?  

         

         

        Good question.  I think the training you did would not apply to a high schooler running 3 miles, more applicable to a marathon runner.  

         

        I recommend visualization before a race.  I would get my mind a calm state, either by meditating or just relaxing and then run the race in my head.  I'd imagine how I'd be feeling during every point in the race, when I was going to work hard, when I was going to start my kick, when I'd respond to surges, and when I'd ignore them.

         

        I always found that when the race happened how I felt nearly always corresponded to how I'd imagined it.  There were no surprises.  

         

        Watch an elite high jumper preparing to jump.  They are imagining every step they will take on the way to the bar.


        Feeling the growl again

          THe hardest mental thing to get through the heat of a HS runner is that blasting off the line and hurting as much as possible for as long as possible will not get you the fastest result...and puking after every day's run will not maximize your training.

           

          I raced a 5K early last spring...there was a HS kid there who was clearly a very good runner.  The gun goes off and he rockets off the line, putting >10sec on me over the first half mile.  By a mile I'd cut that to 5, and another quarter mile I'd caught him.  I briefly went ahead but was having stomach issues and had to idle back and let him put some distance on me.  Then the last 3/4 mile I got the issues behind me and surged ahead, putting enough lead on that his finishing kick (against my complete lack of one) came up a couple seconds short.  He was clearly, in my mind, the faster runner on the day.  But not with the way he ran the race.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

            Good question.  I think the training you did would not apply to a high schooler running 3 miles, more applicable to a marathon runner.  

            ????  She was training for an indoor 800m.  Marathon training?  2-hours?  Serioiusly?  What "mental toughness" are you talking about?

              I just wrote a post on mental toughness.

               

              I agree with Nobby that toughness comes through training, and that you are always building the mind and body at the same time. I have been working with some HS XC kids this fall, and it is fun to see them grow and learn how to pace a race. We try to draw connections between what happens in workouts and what happens in races and also articulate the function of workouts not just in physiological terms but also in terms of their psychological effects.

                Good question.  I think the training you did would not apply to a high schooler running 3 miles, more applicable to a marathon runner.  

                 

                I recommend visualization before a race.  I would get my mind a calm state, either by meditating or just relaxing and then run the race in my head.  I'd imagine how I'd be feeling during every point in the race, when I was going to work hard, when I was going to start my kick, when I'd respond to surges, and when I'd ignore them.

                 

                I always found that when the race happened how I felt nearly always corresponded to how I'd imagined it.  There were no surprises.  

                 

                Watch an elite high jumper preparing to jump.  They are imagining every step they will take on the way to the bar.

                 

                 

                still, you can visualize all you want. If you haven't trained, you won't come close to reaching your potential. Moreover, if you haven't trained how would you even be able to visualize running fast in a distance race. Sure, mental toughness is important, but it's meaningless w/out proper training. 

                 

                Over the weekend I was reading the comments from the coach of the current top ranked HS XC team in Illinois, Palatine. In referring to his top two runners, he said something to the affect, "These two guys are the most aerobically fit runners he's ever had."  That comes from training... and plenty of it on a consistent basis.

                  Other than groaning and running longer than the originally intended jog or learning to race through experience, what are some  workouts that can help a runner through the last 20-33% of a race?

                  Dont call it a comeback

                    Other than groaning and running longer than the originally intended jog or learning to race through experience, what are some  workouts that can help a runner through the last 20-33% of a race?

                     

                    Distances races, especially XC, is about endurance. You build endurance with a solid program that includes the "dreaded" long run, and all the other components that are less dreaded by youngsters such as speed work.  You can try to skip on the long run, but your results won't be optimal.  Trust me, most of the best HS runners are running lots of miles. 

                     

                    Where experience comes in is not starting the race at a 5 minute pace when your best average so far has been much slower. 

                      Thats not really what my question is.

                       

                      During the last 20-33% of a race (be it a 5, 10, HM or M) there comes a point when my body is exhausted. It matters little how well I have paced to this point.  Is there a way to train for this feeling of complete exhaustion?

                       

                      In a way progression runs do this, but my legs still dont have the same heavy feeling. Tempo runs are the same as well, but still lack that same feeling. Is the simple act of racing the practice?

                       

                      I just dont understand how a runner can get through this mental aspect without an associated workout.

                      Dont call it a comeback

                        Thats not really what my question is.

                         

                        During the last 20-33% of a race (be it a 5, 10, HM or M) there comes a point when my body is exhausted. It matters little how well I have paced to this point.  Is there a way to train for this feeling of complete exhaustion?

                         

                        In a way progression runs do this, but my legs still dont have the same heavy feeling. Tempo runs are the same as well, but still lack that same feeling. Is the simple act of racing the practice?

                         

                        I just dont understand how a runner can get through this mental aspect without an associated workout.

                         

                        I'm still not sure I agree that this is a mental issue, but it couid be partly that for you since you might be dwelling on it.

                         

                        If I had to guess your quality days consists of a short warm up, the quality component and a short cool down. Try something a little different for a while: do a longer warm up of easy running, or better yet marathon paced to moderately paced running for 4, 5, or 6 miles. Then, go into the quality part of the workout. Also, follow up the quality part with a longer than normal cool down.  Since you have to run the quality portion on a somewhat fatigued legs and body, you'll be training your body and mind to run faster in a fatigued state.  

                          During the last 20-33% of a race (be it a 5, 10, HM or M) there comes a point when my body is exhausted. It matters little how well I have paced to this point.  Is there a way to train for this feeling of complete exhaustion?

                           

                          I am not sure I understand this.  But it is true that, if you have raced properly, the last mile of a 5k is going to hurt; the last 10k of a marathon is going to hurt (in a different way); certainly the last 400-800 of a mile is going to hurt.  And there are workouts that can get you close to that, but in my experience it is indeed hard to duplicate that same level of pain as what you feel on race day.  IMHO, if you get to the point where your last mile in a 5k doesn't hurt, then you need to consider running faster.  Wink

                          - Joe

                          all running goals are under review by the executive committee.

                            I think there's lots of stuff you can do in training to prepare yourself for the latter part of the race. One easy thing you can do is practice running smooth and strong when you are suffering in practice. For many folks, when they begin to suffer they lose their form and literally fall apart. If you have strength (yes physical, but also mental) as a runner, you can hold your form together even as you are in the whirl of the last part of the race.

                             

                            I think a good simple workout for this is 8 x 100m on tired legs at the end of a steady distance run. You practice running quickly and with coordination on tired legs. This takes mental focus that approximates the sort of focus that you need over the last third of a race.

                            coach-T


                              I think there's lots of stuff you can do in training to prepare yourself for the latter part of the race. One easy thing you can do is practice running smooth and strong when you are suffering in practice. For many folks, when they begin to suffer they lose their form and literally fall apart. If you have strength (yes physical, but also mental) as a runner, you can hold your form together even as you are in the whirl of the last part of the race.

                               

                              I think a good simple workout for this is 8 x 100m on tired legs at the end of a steady distance run. You practice running quickly and with coordination on tired legs. This takes mental focus that approximates the sort of focus that you need over the last third of a race.

                               I like this advice as well as the "long run." For shorter races (like a 5k) I would recommend racing a few longer races (like a 10k). Harder to apply this to a marathon, in fact I do not feel it would have the same effect, but I do not claim to know much of anything about racing a marathon at this point. I always feel after I ran a good 10k, found my pace and feel for the race, I can go back to a 5k and really pace through it with a strong finish.

                               

                              Something else I find a great addition to my routine is to do strides at the end of a hard workout or the "long run." That is why I like Jeff's post here, it is really the same thing. The part I like to focus on is that you want to lengthen your stride a bit to make sure that you are keeping it long enough when you tire out (but keeping proper form), also speed up into each "stride." I tend to do 8x60m however, making sure I have rest in between until I feel I can give the 60m my all, but not too much rest. Sometimes I also do 60m jog back then start immediately; no specific formula but I do what feels right. This is also the only time I run barefoot as well, as I often do strides on the grass.

                              coach-T


                                "These two guys are the most aerobically fit runners he's ever had."  That comes from training... and plenty of it on a consistent basis.

                                 I also assume they know how to run a 5k properly (good mental pace and work); as Nobby quoted:

                                 

                                Lorraine Moller would tell you it's "100% physical and 100% mental"

                                 

                                You cannot get physically fit without working through the "pain" mentally first.

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