Forums >General Running>Runner's knee problems?
Hi So around three years ago I developed runner's knee from fencing and running on the treadmill without proper running shoes. I visited a sport's doctors and he diagnosed that I had runner's knee. He told me to attend physical therapy and to visit again after three months. So at physical therapy I did all the stretches they asked and had my knees taped up and all that stuff. After three months I felt a decent amount of improvement and the doctor was pleased.However after another 3 months nothing had really changed. I visited another doctor and had a MRI, and nothing was found. After a few more months I stopped going to PT since nothing was really changing.
So two years later I still can't run. I've tried various times to start again, incredibly slowly, but no matter what I try after a week the pain comes back. I've tried various types of running shoes as well, from normal running shoes like Asics to Altra zero drop shoes. I don't know what to do at this point.
For some strange reason, even when I'm not walking long distances, me knees hurt to some extent, and the pain is most noticeable when I'm either sitting down or sleeping. The knee pains seem to particularly bad whenever my hips hurt.
Does anyone have any recommendations, like good stretching techniques or recommendations??
Thanks!
No magical solutions, but a question: Do you get knee or hip pain when walking, bicycling, swimming, snowshoeing, or cross country skiing?
Get a copy of Anatomy for Runners, by Jay Dicharry. It may help, and won't hurt.
No magical solutions, but a question: Do you get knee or hip pain when walking, bicycling, swimming, snowshoeing, or cross country skiing? Get a copy of Anatomy for Runners, by Jay Dicharry. It may help, and won't hurt.
I know, just looking for some new stretches. Not sure, I just know that whenever my hips hurt really badly my knees hurt a lot. But whenever my knees hurt my hips don't always hurt. Just walking and maybe an occasional small burst of running.
check this out: http://www.runningwritings.com/2012/02/injury-series-biomechanical-solutions.html
PR's - Marathon: 4:00, Half: 1:49:59, 5k: 22:57
I'm no medical professional, but I felt I should try to help a fellow former fencer if I could!
From what I understand the knees are a "dumb joint", so pain you feel there will mostly be caused from muscular imbalances or inadiquacies in either your hips or ankles. Based on your hip pain I'd say they're your problem, not your ankles. Have you tried weight training exercises to strengthen your hips? Squats, clamshells, monster walks, wall sits squeezing a medicine ball, etc? I imagine they had you doing those in PT but you didn't mention them. If you haven't done those yet I would try them next.
When I've had knee pain in the past it's mostly been cause by a tight IT band. KeithAngilly's link looks really informative, I'd second checking that out. If you're looking for stretches, I particularly like the one described here: http://b-reddy.org/2012/03/04/the-best-damn-it-band-stretch-ever/ (if you don't care to read so much, just watch the second video, under the text "The better way". I always do it pulling my bent knee to my chest, as pictured further on down the website, but same basic idea)
Hope that helps!
Biomimeticist
The real joke of this is how many have read it and have no answers for you. And they have no answer no differently than the medical establishment garbage you've been fed by the medical and training community who won't help you.
First off, there's no such thing as "runner's knee". You have a knee and it hurts, And that pain originates from lousy running form. Running isn't the cause, it merely exacerbates the stress. Biology defines the problem as being that you're too reliant on your quadriceps as you move. Since the tendons from the quads pass through the kneecap to attach to the lower leg when your quads fire, the first thing to happen is to pull the kneecap back into the femoral groove. Reduce your quad reliance to run and your problem is solved.
Since you have poor running form, you have to start from scratch, so to speak and retrain your body to take the stress loads from the quads and redistribute them to other muscles in your body.
Having access to a treadmill is the easiest way to learn what you need to learn.Starting from scratch, I'll encourage you to try the masking tape exercise of this story. Learning the walking technique of the story is altering the firing sequence of your muscles to run. The end result is a more natural function of the knee joint. Not only that, the quads are the last muscle to fire in walking and running when you bring yourself up to running speed.
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/running/evolution-of-learning-how-to-run-distance
I'm the Robert in the story and you're more than welcome to write me with any questions.
Experts said the world is flat
Experts said that man would never fly
Experts said we'd never go to the moon
Name me one of those "experts"...
History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong
I see someone is saying 'write me if you have questions', which usually means it's fishing season.
To the OP, not sure what was or wasn't done with the MRI but make sure you don't have arthritis, since the pain seems to be there even when you're idle. If it's not arthritis, wrapping and taping won't solve the issue, it only slows down the onset. Stretching rarely does anything helpful. In my earlier days of running I had imbalance issues and was mainly solved by doing lateral leg raises while laying on the floor, raising first the outer leg, holding, then lowering working the outside muscles, then the lower leg using the inside muscles. Switch sides and repeat, 20 per leg outer, 20 inner, and 3 sets. This pretty well got me around the issues.
Chief Endurance Dork
While I'm always a proponent of working on your running form, it's a pretty big ask for someone already in pain to accomplish on their own. Also, many research articles have shown that even with instruction, most people revert to their old form shortly after instruction. So trying to start from scratch and scrap everything you know, sounds like a good idea, but given that you already have discomfort with any running, I'm not sure that's the easiest or most efficient path.
I agree with some earlier posters that your hips are a great place to start. Since they seem to be the harbinger for the severe knee discomfort, I think it's over-whelmingly likely that improving them will improve the knees....at least partially. If that allows you to eek out more pain-free mileage, it may be the launching pad to easier movement and more running.
Working on the hips likely won't be just standard stretching and strengthening exercises. It's going to be more about re-educating muscles and waking some dormant ones up so they begin to fire again when they're supposed to. Combining hip and mid-section exercises tends to be the most effective way -- I like Pilates work for this. Finding a skilled Pilates instructor can go a long way.....simple looking exercises that are really difficult to do correctly. And form is everything.
Also, do the simple stuff and get the major hip pathologies out of the way.....see an ortho for some imaging to make sure you don't have advanced degenerative arthritis in the hips or something.
Incidentally PIlates isn't the only way you can go with the hip work -- you can find a PT or movement specialist that works on high-level movement, neuro-muscular retraining, biofeedback and stabilization sequencing, but they're harder to come by.
Good luck....I know how frustrating this can be....
endurancenerd.com
Lay on your side and raize leg if your hip-top of leg hurts mabe itb. Do a quad strech let go of foot and lower slowly. If that hurts mabe tendon damage. It really helps if you can find cause of pain.
Do core work. Get on TM for only 15 min and see if it hurts. Don't run farther until it doesn't hurt anymore.
Naproxin 400 mg. You have to stop the pain before it will heal.
Tai Chi will help. Learn to separate wt. and land with knee over toe and foot pointed strait ahead. It will take 3-5 years to change the way you move because you have been doing it wrong your whole life.