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Last warm up race before full, do I have it in me? (Read 217 times)

     

    Yeah, the real absurdity is this:  Assuming a runner has a fitness level that will support a 3:59:59 marathon (9:09 pace), 8:40 pace would be right around that runners half-marathon pace... so, no, don't run the first 10 miles at your half-marathon pace!  I can promise that will end badly... lol...

     

    After I run a HM at HM pace I'm usually unable to even run a cool down. How the hell does one run another?

     

    I agree with Dakota but will say you can still suffer badly on a neg split race, BUT you can also get a much better result.

       

      After I run a HM at HM pace I'm usually unable to even run a cool down. How the hell does one run another?

       

      I agree with Dakota but will say you can still suffer badly on a neg split race, BUT you can also get a much better result.

       

      Agreed. If I can still run at the end of a HM then I wasn't running at HM pace. To each his own, but I almost always plan for even splits. Negative splits are great and happen when I'm running better than I thought I could and positive splits happen when I over estimate my fitness and they hurt like hell.

        and running a huge neg split is just frustrating...

         

        ...too much time left out on the course.

        Julia1971


          I think you should go for it.  That half marathon time should be giving you a lot of confidence.  I still would be concerned about hills late in the race but I wouldn't let it hold me back.  I would pace the race for sub-4 (like maybe 3:50/3:55?) and then deal with the hills when I get to them.

          You're too strong not to keep on keepin' on. - The Pips
          Yes, I am! - Gladys Knight

          jojo61397


            I would rather run a safe 9:00 min/mile on this course than go all out and bonk big time.  The thing about this course is it's a tough course.  It will be difficult to PR.  Just ask NTS.

            Jodi

             

            PR:

            Half: 1:48 (March 3rd, 2013)

            Full: 4:05:40 (March 17th, 2013)

             

            2013/2014 Goals:

            Sub-4:00 hour Marathon

            Sub- 125 pounds
            Sub- 1:45 hour half.

            Julia1971


              I would rather run a safe 9:00 min/mile on this course than go all out and bonk big time.  The thing about this course is it's a tough course.  It will be difficult to PR.  Just ask NTS.

               

              Good call.  Also, if you're going by Garmin, the course will be "long", so going with 9:00 pace should get you there.  Good luck!  Smile

              You're too strong not to keep on keepin' on. - The Pips
              Yes, I am! - Gladys Knight


              Feeling the growl again

                 

                 

                 

                I agree with Dakota but will say you can still suffer badly on a neg split race, BUT you can also get a much better result.

                 

                Well unless you are jogging it, a marathon is going to hurt any way you do it.  But I would rather feel awful the last 3-4 miles as I manage to hold the desired average place or close to it, than deal with a 8-10 mile bonk where I'm a minute or more slower and my vision is going wonky the last mile due to low blood sugar (been there, done that, still have the T-shirt somewhere).

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 


                Right on Hereford...

                    

                  I agree with Dakota but will say you can still suffer badly on a neg split race, BUT you can also get a much better result.

                   

                  Oh absolutely, marathons are all about suffering, no matter what. But...there is a HUGE difference between the pain you feel in the last 10k of a well-run marathon (i.e., finishing strong and on pace) vs. the pain you feel in a big positive split marathon, where you are hurting worse, for much longer (distance- and time-wise), and you can't even run within 2 minutes of the pace you ran earlier in the race.

                     

                    Oh, I think he has. Or should have, I meant to say.    Log stalking...

                     

                    KLD's MCM 2012

                    1st half: 2:05:40 (9:36 pace)

                    2nd half: 2:43:14 (12:28 pace)

                     

                        There were a whole lot of factors at the MCM where I did myself in even prior to the race... I don't want to write a paragraph on it, but in just about every way I could mess up getting a good time at the MCM, I did.  But it wasn't bad first half' pacing though (1st half MCM: 2:05, my normal half marathon finish times:  1:55ish)...  It was a bunch of other decisions that were not conducive to a proper finish.

                     

                       The main thing I want to say though:  After reading the first 2 replies to my suggestion, I already had planned to change my personal plan. :-)  Spaniel's opinions are always on point.   What you guys say makes sense, and I had a recent time in the rain on a 30K of an 8:47 pace, so I am going to simplify this, skip any 'banking time' idea, and roll out at a straight 9 minute per mile pace consistent for the race.  I've logged much better distance mileage lately, so will trust the 9's flat to get me there.    

                     

                      Now, back to the OP... Jojo, good luck on your race coming up!

                    The Plan (big parts)→  /// April '14:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (PR 80 Miles) ///  Nov '14:  New York Marathon  ///  Dec:  Seashore State Park 50K  ///  April 2015:  VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (Goal: >80.1+Miles)  ∞


                    Feeling the growl again

                       

                         

                       

                         The main thing I want to say though:  After reading the first 2 replies to my suggestion, I already had planned to change my personal plan. :-)  Spaniel's opinions are always on point.   What you guys say makes sense, and I had a recent time in the rain on a 30K of an 8:47 pace, so I am going to simplify this, skip any 'banking time' idea, and roll out at a straight 9 minute per mile pace consistent for the race.  I've logged much better distance mileage lately, so will trust the 9's flat to get me there.    

                       

                       

                      I'm glad my reply was taken constructively, I just hate seeing people learn the hard way.  One of the benefits of people coming up in running now is the resources they have to learn.  There were no message boards when I was cutting my teeth; the school of hard knocks was the closest thing to it.  My first marathon I was probably in shape for a low-2:40; instead I got over-confident and went out fast to "bank time", blew up at only 16 miles, and without exaggerating I can say that if the finish line had been more than another 100-200 yards down the road I would have blacked out and done a face-plant into the pavement.  My vision was blacking out from the edges on in as I staggered down the final straightaway.  I ran a HUGE positive split for a 2:53, and never want to repeat or see anyone else go through that sort of learning experience.

                       

                      The best-run (not fastest) marathon I ever did was a positive split (by 12 seconds) 2:29.  There was some drama at the start getting caught too far back and I got hyped up, going out about 30 seconds faster than planned over the first 6 miles.  Doesn't sound like a lot, does it?  I caught up to the guy I was supposed to run the race with from the start, slowed down, and got back on plan.    We ran together until 23 miles, at which point the wheels started coming off and I barely held it together to the finish; he pulled away and held pace.  We ran chip time 0:01 difference, but his experience was a lot better than mine!  Funny how 30sec could make the difference.  But 30 sec fast in the first half can cost you minutes in the second.

                       

                      Best of luck to you and the OP, keep us updated on the results.

                       

                      MTA:  I see your sig you are running VA Beach.  I can very, very close to coming down for that this year.  Please let us know what you think of that race.

                      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                       

                      jojo61397


                        Spaniel, I lived in VA Beach for 2 years, and did Shamrock, great race!

                        Jodi

                         

                        PR:

                        Half: 1:48 (March 3rd, 2013)

                        Full: 4:05:40 (March 17th, 2013)

                         

                        2013/2014 Goals:

                        Sub-4:00 hour Marathon

                        Sub- 125 pounds
                        Sub- 1:45 hour half.

                          Appreciate the advice Spaniel.  You, others, and Jojo's post here may have helped me set myself up better for a shot at that sub-4 finish.

                           

                          As to Shamrock, the reasons I love that race:  It has been around a long time (over 40 years), J&A events puts on a superb race each year and it is very well organized.   There is an afterparty with a live band at the finish line tent on the beach (huge tent, holds thousands).  4 free Yuengling beers per customer for 'carb replenishment' Wink...

                          And as to the actual race itself, temps usually perfect 'race' temps in the 50's at the start..   You finish on the oceanfront next to the Atlantic...  Corrals are released in waves, so there is plenty of room for maneuvering (Unlike MCM!)...  There are some sections of the course with lots of spectators, and other sections that are pretty isolated, a little of both (I personally felt that a race like MCM had TOO much cowbell, just depends on personal preference..)  And finally, I like the course because it is almost perfectly flat, which makes it a great PR opportunity.    ...Now you'll have to remember that I live in Virginia Beach, so I am partial to this race for that reason as well.  :-)

                          The Plan (big parts)→  /// April '14:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (PR 80 Miles) ///  Nov '14:  New York Marathon  ///  Dec:  Seashore State Park 50K  ///  April 2015:  VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (Goal: >80.1+Miles)  ∞


                          Feeling the growl again

                            And finally, I like the course because it is almost perfectly flat, which makes it a great PR opportunity.  

                             

                            Yup...the reason I've followed the race is that a number of years ago I worked with the RD to organize a group to run there and work together to qualify for they Olympic Trials.  I specifically picked the race as I could not find a better fast course in the spring.  The RD and elite coordinator were wonderful to work with.  Sadly I ended up overtrained and did not go but one of the guys I recruited to go punched his ticket to the Trials in NY.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             


                            King of PhotoShop

                              Given your mileage volume, HM time and past experience, if the weather is good and the course is fair, you will absolutely kill a sub-4, provided you pace it correctly. Most of the advice you have been given is excellent..  I'd like you to at least consider one more idea.

                               

                              The most efficient marathon you can run is even paced miles, but it costs you nothing at all to run the first 4-5 miles slower than average.  I ran 3:58 two years ago by running 9:20's for 5 miles.  Was I panicking?  Not at all, because I knew I could run way faster than that, and in the middle miles, once warmed up, that's just what happened, a long string of sub-9's, effortlessly.

                               

                              Please trust your good training and speed. Do NOT go out sub 9!   Execute this correctly and sub-4 is going to be a snap.  Spareribs

                              jojo61397


                                Just wanted to post an update to this post, as my marathon was today.

                                 

                                I did not get a sub-4:00 hour marathon, but I did get a 10 minute PR.  The reasons why I did not kill the a sub-4:00 hour are:  1.  The course was far more brutal than I had anticipated, with the bulk of the hills the last 10 miles.  Between 18-22 miles, the up hills were just brutal.  2.  There was a fair bit of wind, but nothing I really noticed, but I suspect it would have had an effect.  and 3.  It was warm, but not overly hot.  I am used to training in heat, so that should not have been a factor.  4.  I did not pace it well at all.  I felt really good and confident until I reached the first really hard hill at mile 18, and I just went down hill from there.  If you look at my splits you can tell when there were uphills.

                                 

                                Had the weather been better, and on a less hilly course, I think I would have been able to get a sub-3:55 if not a sub-3:50, but if wishes were fishes, I would be swimming in Red Snapper.  I'm going to marathon shop for a late-fall, early winter marathon the next couple days.  I have my name in the hat for 2013 NYC, I doubt I'll get in, but 2014 I'm a guaranteed entry, so I will definitely be running it either this year or next.  If I get in, then it's NYC baby, if I don't, then I'm looking at a Veteran's Day weekend marathon-- there's a few in the area Pensacola; Columbus, GA; and I think there's one more.

                                 

                                Anyway, time is listed below, and I have a RR on the marathon dailies.

                                Jodi

                                 

                                PR:

                                Half: 1:48 (March 3rd, 2013)

                                Full: 4:05:40 (March 17th, 2013)

                                 

                                2013/2014 Goals:

                                Sub-4:00 hour Marathon

                                Sub- 125 pounds
                                Sub- 1:45 hour half.

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