Goal of sub 17 minute 5k (Read 8208 times)

     
    As I am currently working on upping my weekly mileage, I've decided that for me, it is better to keep the mileage relatively consistent throughout the week.  So, my long run is only a mile or 2 longer than my average daily distance.  I think that if you are in a mileage building phase, overly long indivual runs will have a tendency to tire you more, and potentially lead to more "dead leg" feelings and potential injuries.  So for you, I wonder if you might be better off turning some of those 12 and 13 milers into 9 or 10 milers, and bumping your 3 or 4 milers up to 6 or 7 milers.

     

    I don't know that either way is right, I'm just thinking out loud.  For me, I'm up to my highest weekly mileage in a long time, and my legs still feel pretty fresh most days.  In the past, whenever I've hit this mileage I've started breaking down, and I think that's because I've overdistanced my long days.

     

    This is great advice.


    On My Horse

      I haven't posted in here in forever but I've got a good crack at a sub 17 in about a month.

       

      I've got to run a 5k Time Trial at tryouts for XC for my first year at college, where the standard will be 17:20.  My current pr is like 18:10 from some road race earlier this summer, but I've been building a great base (averaging like 60 mpw over the last two months) and think I'm going to be able to make a run at sub 17.  From the way my training has gone (and a recent workout) I think I'm in significantly better shape than when I ran my 18:10 pr

       

      I've got a road race 5k in about a week which should be a nice tune up, it is a hilly course, but I will expect to run in the 17s pretty easily.

       

      If I don't get sub 17 in the TT, I probably won't get another shot at a track 5k until sometime during indoor track, so I really want to run a sub 17 just to get it out of the way.

      "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies with in us." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

        Russia,

         

        Glad to hear that the training has been going well.  I'm definitely interested to see what your summer mileage does for you in your race next week.  Make sure you let us know how it goes.

         

        Out of curiousity, what happens if you don't hit 17:20 in your time trial?  Do you not make the team?  Is this a big school or small school?  Just curious.

         

        Good luck with the upcoming race.

        Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------

        2014 Goals:

        1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
        2. Run 5k < 16:00
        3. Hold off father time for at least another year

          Training Week of 8/3 - 8/9:

           

          43 miles total, 6 days

          All easy miles

           

          I generally run early mornings and missed Sunday's run because I was working late Saturday night.  Figured I'd sleep in and get the run in that night, but life got in the way.  I'll be looking for upper 40's - 50 miles this week and the next several.  I've been slacking on quality workouts somewhat intentionally, but am going to mix in at least 1 quality workout a week over the coming weeks.

          Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------

          2014 Goals:

          1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
          2. Run 5k < 16:00
          3. Hold off father time for at least another year

            I've fallen off the map in this thread lately.  The dog days of summer have hit, vacation, and I'm ramping for a fall marathon so my sub-17 quest is taking a back seat for the moment.  I think there's a decent chance I can knock it out in the fall off of marathon training but my primary focus right now is Baystate on October 18th.

             

            Getting back on the horse after my vaction the first week of August, I got in 74 miles last week including a good 4 x 1600 workout and a 16 mile long run on Sunday.

            Runners run.

              Glad you're back on track Mike.  It's tough to squeeze the shorter races into the marathon training, but hopefully you can get another shot or 2 at it.  If not, I think the timing for a sub-17 Turkey day 5k seems about right.

               

              My last 2 weeks:

               

              8/10 - 8/16

              Total 49.7 miles

              Had an encouraging tempo run, 20 mins @ 6:00 pace.  Felt good and could have stretched it another 5 minutes or so without too much trouble.

               

              8/17-8/23

              Total 45.7 miles

              Did a 9 mile progression run - heat & humidity was awful and I actually cut a mile of hard running off at the end and jogged it in.  Still, got in about 2 miles at  6:30 pace, and 1 mile around 6:15.

               

              Weather has been brutal this week.  I'm an early morning runner (5 am) and it's been mid 70's with 80-90% humidity the past week.  Much worse than I'm used to, so I'm just glad I've survived.

               

              Tentatively looking at a 5k on 9/5 and another on 9/19.  I think I'm close to 17:00 shape, but not sure if the speed is there yet.  The first race will show me where I am, and I'm hopeful I can go sub 17 at the 2nd one.

              Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

              -------------------------------------------------------------------------

              2014 Goals:

              1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
              2. Run 5k < 16:00
              3. Hold off father time for at least another year

                Bi-weekly update...

                 

                I've had weeks of 77 and 72 miles the last 2 with a few big strength workouts. Yesterday I did 18.5 miles with 3 x 2 miles at MP (although they came out a bit faster.) The last 2 mile interval was in 12:19.5 but I split it 6:14, 6:06 and was getting stronger as the workout went along. I'm getting that indestructible feeling I get when marathon training starts to really roll.

                 

                I feel the last 3 weeks I've made huge strides in strength and endurance. After working more on the speed end of the spectrum for the first half of the summer and running a decent 5k (17:22) and 4 mi (22:53) I took 2 weeks down--not on purpose--before getting serious about marathon training with these last 3 weeks of 74, 77, 72 with big workouts. In hindsight it was a perfect combination. I think it takes 3 weeks of something to make a difference and I'm feeling the difference now. And I think the 2 down weeks in late-July and early-August, one of which was a vacation week, were perfectly timed to let some little niggles heal and let my legs recharge. I love it when the training starts to come together. I feel like I could run through a brick wall right now, the fall-like weather probably helps.

                 

                Right now I think I'll actually get this sub 17 thing this year. I have a couple target races picked out for early November, after a quick recovery from Baystate on Oct 18th. But it would not shock me if it happened before then...I'm going to leave myself open to the possibility of a breakthrough between now and then. The funny thing is even though I'm allegedly training for Baystate I spend a lot more time thinking about the 5k than the marathon.

                The 5k and then some rinky-dink podunk marathon in Tennessee in November that I'm not even signed up for. We'll see.

                 

                Keep running my friends.

                Runners run.

                  I haven't posted on this thread in awhile as it seemed WAYYYY out of reach; I've been concentrating on the 18:36/18:00 thread for now.  I actually pulled a list of races for the fall which I had been reluctant to do; haven't raced since 2005.

                   

                  Last week I hit 33:11 for 5 miles, which puts this goal back on the really distant radar...its a reach, sure, but sophomore year of high school my 5 mile best was 32:56 and I ran 2 5K's in 17:35 and 17:26 on flat road courses in December (best cross country time was 18:16 on a hilly course).  I was running 35-45 miles per week during the season but hadn't run all summer.  I had more speed then but was nowhere near as strong.  Oh yeah and now I'm 30 pounds heavier.

                   

                  Sophomore year of college I tore a hamstring before I could race a 5K but I was probably close to 16:20 shape...did a 10K in 37:39, mile in 4:46, and a 3000m in 9:36...all on 60 mile easy distance weeks (I didn't do an interval workout for over 3 months).  My fastest official time is 17:07 from the year before that, when I was barely pulling 30-40 miles/week.  So I'm pretty confident if I ever did get the mileage in I have enough speed to do it.

                   

                  In 2009 I've been running 25-30 miles per week trying to get it into the 30s as the weather is finally cooling off.  I am a cold weather runner.  My normal pace is 7:45-8:00, although I push it on some runs closer to 7:30.

                   

                  If I can get good mileage (bunch of 40+ mile weeks) in over the winter - with a 2.5 week hiatus for the honeymoon in Brazil around Thanksgiving - do you guys think I'm smoking crack sticking in this goal for the spring?

                    If I can get good mileage (bunch of 40+ mile weeks) in over the winter - with a 2.5 week hiatus for the honeymoon in Brazil around Thanksgiving - do you guys think I'm smoking crack sticking in this goal for the spring?

                     

                    My high school times from a thousand years ago indicated I have about the same raw speed as you, maybe a bit more, and I couldn't get withing shouting distance of 17 minutes off of anything in the 40's per week, of that I am certain.  Even 5 years ago when I was 34 I was running in the 60's per week with quality, after a winter of marathon training in the 70's, when I ran 17 flat and that was with 3+ years of fairly consistent training under my belt.

                     

                    I think if you really want to get there you have to make a couple of fundamental changes to the way you think about running.

                     

                    First, forget about high school--it's not really relevant anymore.  You need to learn to train with the 34 year old body you have now, and your detailed recall of races from 18 years ago indicates you're not living in the now.  A 5-mile to 5k conversion from when you were 16 years old is utterly meaningless in your mid 30's.

                     

                    Second, don't pick the number and try to work back to it.  It seems almost like you're asking what's the minimum you could do and still have a shot at 17.  Approach it from the other direction: figure out how much you are able and willing to train and do that for a while and see where it gets you...then when you're running in the 17's reliably, you can start to plan an attack from there to sub 17.

                     

                    I'd say you're absolutely capable of getting there, but like for all of us it is a matter of priorities.

                    Runners run.


                    A Dance with Monkeys


                      and then some rinky-dink podunk marathon in Tennessee in November that I'm not even signed up for. We'll see.

                       

                      MonkeyTail.  Heh.

                        Great post, Mikey.

                         

                        I thought I'd share an email I sent to a buddy who was working through some of the same issues. I've changed some of the details to suit your case. Here's the email:

                         

                        I swear to god it is possible to get back into college shape--even better, maybe, for me. but the dangerous thing is that the mind has not lost its college conditioning, though the body has. When we got in shape the first time, we were also teaching the mind how to read the body, how to push the body, how to disregard the suffering. This is remembered now. But then, we didn't know, and that--plus a young body free from the stresses of adult life--protected us the first time around from overtraining.


                        THEN the problem was: develop runner-MIND and runner-BODY. These went together. NOW the problem is different: we already HAVE runner-mind, but NEED runner-body to match the mind. That's why I think the biggest struggle is putting a check on the runner-mind, just a bit, to allow the body to catch back up. Since runner-body is at 80%, we need to back down runner-mind to 80%, then slowly as body returns, we can let the mind return with it.


                        The famous coach Tom Derderian posted the following on letsrun:

                        You have a deep experience that the "structure" is now imbeded in your mind so you now rely on an instinct to know when to push and when to coast. You no longer need a watch or a workout to tell you what to do. 

                        The key is the 8 years you have spent thinking and doing. That is priceless.

                        Tom
                         

                         

                        The deep-structure that Derderian is talking about is there. You couldn't get rid of it if you tried. it will haunt you, always. The deep structure knows how run the body of a 4:40 miler. But here is the question: does it know how to run the body of a 5:10 miler that's carrying 30 more pounds? Because this is the task, right now.

                         


                         


                        The King of Beasts

                          then some rinky-dink podunk marathon in Tennessee in November that I'm not even signed up for. We'll see.

                           

                           

                           

                          "As a dreamer of dreams and a travelin' man I have chalked up many a mile. Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, And I've learned much from both of their styles." ~ Jimmy Buffett

                           

                          "I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."”

                            If I can get good mileage (bunch of 40+ mile weeks) in over the winter - with a 2.5 week hiatus for the honeymoon in Brazil around Thanksgiving - do you guys think I'm smoking crack sticking in this goal for the spring?

                             

                            The Spring is probably pushing it since a lot of what you are basing your evaluation on is hypothetical.   You think you were in 16:20 shape back in college, but your best actual was over 17.  And you have the big if, IF you can get the mileage up. 

                             

                            In a lot of ways I'm similar to you.  I had reasonable success back in high school and college, but never really trained optimally and feel like I could have done a lot better.  I'm also generally impatient with my goals, and feel like I should be able to get back to my high school times (at least in the 5k and up) relatively quickly - when I don't, I get discouraged.  And, I've always let life's distractions (I mean priorities) get in the way.

                             

                            But this time around I'm taking a different approach, and I think it might help you too. Sure I have some short term time goals, but my real goal is getting consistent mileage.  If you gave me the option of going sub 17 or getting in 6 months of consistent 50-60 mile weeks, I'd take the mileage.  Each week that I hit my mileage goal I consider it an accomplishment.  And I know that getting the mileage is the only way I will really drop my times again, so in the end, by just focusing on mileage, I'm going to have a better shot at the time goals than if I focus on the times themselves.

                             

                            So, I recommend rearranging the priorities.  Make consistent mileage your primary goal.  Keep the sub 18 as a shorter term checkpoint.  And keep the sub 17 in the back of your mind.  Ultimately, what you want to do (and me as well) is to reach your "present day you" potential, and whatever times that produces, it is what it is.

                            Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            2014 Goals:

                            1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
                            2. Run 5k < 16:00
                            3. Hold off father time for at least another year

                              Training week of 8/24 - 8/30:

                               

                              Total of 50.8 miles - just about all easy miles.  Threw a few strides in mid week.

                               

                              Legs were sluggish coming off of brutal humidity last week, and I'm dealing with some foot soreness, but nothing major.  This was the first time officially over 50 miles (although I hit 49 two weeks ago).  Still feeling pretty good, and am planning to stay in the 50-55 mile range for a while now.

                               

                              Have my first race since July Fourth scheduled for this Saturday.  It's a local 5k on a certified, flat course, so we'll see what I can do.  I'm expecting low 17's, but I'm not entirely sure, as I haven't had any races or many good evaluation workouts in while.  It could end up better, it could end up worse.

                              Running Boston in memory of my son.  Want to help?

                              -------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              2014 Goals:

                              1. Run Boston for Matthew (< 2:40 if possible)
                              2. Run 5k < 16:00
                              3. Hold off father time for at least another year

                                 

                                 

                                Second, don't pick the number and try to work back to it.  It seems almost like you're asking what's the minimum you could do and still have a shot at 17.  Approach it from the other direction: figure out how much you are able and willing to train and do that for a while and see where it gets you...then when you're running in the 17's reliably, you can start to plan an attack from there to sub 17.

                                 

                                I'd say you're absolutely capable of getting there, but like for all of us it is a matter of priorities.

                                 Good point Mikey - I had put the 40-50 total out there as the minimum I would have to do in order to even think about it.  60+ would be better, I was really humming along when I got my mileage up there.  I agree, there's no magic # minimum - 42.3 miles per week for 12 weeks produces 16:59 - and I don't want to cut it that close anyway.

                                 

                                I keep meticulous records and am drawing all the parallels off the fall of 1990.  I'm far ahead in terms of base (I didn't run at all for 2 months that summer), 5 mile best, 5K tempo, and overall strength.  By the end of October I ran 18:15, then mid 17's by December.  I'm not sure I'll progress that quickly (would like to break 18 this fall) but I also topped out my mileage in the 40's and tended to run most of my easy runs at too fast a pace....which you can get away with at that age to a point.