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long run pace question (Read 1423 times)

    When I started running over10 years ago, I worked up to 40+ miles per week after a couple of years or so. My 5-K times were anywhere from the high 20`s to the mid 20`s. I thought that increasing mileage was the key to increasing speed. I think that we all know that the only way to run faster is to train your body to run faster. You cannot do that without speed work and by not training your fast twitch muscles or your body to handle the stresses of faster race paces unless you are genetically endowed with natural speed, or you work hard to get your body in that shape. Believe me, I have not just thrown in my intervals over the last few weeks. In fact, the last 3 years I have seen my 5-K times reduced to the high 19`s, low 20`s, and only after adding intervals at least every other week. I could no way have gotten my race times down to those numbers by logging 40-50 miles per week at slow paces. I tried that, and the huge weekly numbers is what made me have to shorten my weekly mileage because it was tearing and beating my hips, legs and back apart. That did not come from adding speedwork. Since 2004, the only "injuries" that I have sustained is the expected muscle soreness from streneous workouts, and maybe a few tight hammies or IT bands here and there. Nothing, that has sidelined me or kept me from running. I did not mean to confuse when I asked about my long run pace. I felt myself that it might be a little too quick, and that is indeed what everyone else agrees with. I do believe that moving to 6 X 800 for 3:22 for example, will be a good replacement for the shorter, quicker intervals. However, I do wonder how after several weeks of discontinuing speed work and lengthening weekly mileage with longer, slower runs will keep me competitve in the spring 5-K`s. I can see where it would benefit if I were training for a marathon, which I will never do. I`m sure that I could probably run a low 40 10-K, if that were my race of choice. The 10-K time which I spoke of was merely a run that was held in an area which I was vacationing, and I really did not have a race plan or specific splits in which I was trying to hit. This is really a great forum, and I can see where there are tons of great advice. I`m sure that I will have many more questions, as well as a few answers here and there for any newbies. Happy running folks! Big grin
    "I never said it was going to be easy. I only said it would be worth it."


    SMART Approach

      Knifey, Start with some slow tempos which are still great for building strength. Within a mid week longer run start w/ 2 miles and work up to 5 miles (within this run after a warm up). This pace is around 1 min slower per mile pace than your current 5K race pace. If you are not sure of your 5K race pace, run one. Your general training runs should be 2 min slower tha 5K pace and slow tempos 50-60 sec. slower than 5K pace. Throw in some 100M quick striders (5K progressing to 800M pace) once per week and you have enough stimulus to improve and get some fire in your legs without getting injured.

      Run Coach. Recovery Coach. Founder of SMART Approach Training, Coaching & Recovery

      Structured Marathon Adaptive Recovery Training

      Safe Muscle Activation Recovery Technique

      www.smartapproachtraining.com

        10-4 Tchuck. That sounds like a sensible start. I am excited to see what the results will be after a few weeks of implementing these new ideas.
        "I never said it was going to be easy. I only said it would be worth it."


        The Greatest of All Time

          I think that we all know that the only way to run faster is to train your body to run faster. You cannot do that without speed work and by not training your fast twitch muscles or your body to handle the stresses of faster race paces unless you are genetically endowed with natural speed, or you work hard to get your body in that shape.
          I don't think anyone would disagree with that thought. But I think perhaps some people think your aerobic base hasn't been maximized yet. I can't see your log and you didn't state if you have been running consistently for some time. There are a lot of really new runners on this board and naturally once they have accomplished a distance they want to run it faster. Most people here, and I am one of them, don't think a new runner needs any speed work as their pace will naturally increase as they build their aerobic base along with becoming more efficient runners. But I agree, if you're an experienced runner with an established base and you feel your speed is maxed out from running slow, then yes, you have to do the speed work. And that's the fun part.
          all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

          Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.
            It's simply not true that you have to do speedwork to get faster. If you're trying to shave those last couple of seconds off, sure, but over the long term you'll get better results from mileage and tempos.

            Runners run

              I don`t keep a training log on this forum, yet. I lost my old one back when Coolrunning "died", or whatever happened. I just keep one the old fashioned way for now. Yes, I would consider myself an experinced runner of well over 10 years. I have to tell you that I would simply love to log 50+ MPW, but my body will never allow me to do that. I envy those who can run those L O N G weeks. I no doubt would be able to maximize my areobic capacity more if I could. But the way it is, I just don`t go over 30 MPW. I don`t have a "set" schedule because it is impossible with 2 boys involved in everything imaginable. I just try to get in the "key" workouts to keep me sharp, and in the best conditioning that I can be in, especially during spring and fall racing season. The rest of the year I am fine doing slower longer runs as many have spoken, in order to keep a halfway decent base for those seasons. I wish that I could someday run a marathon or get down into the sub 19 minute 5-K range, but being a high 19 low 20 minute 5-Ker with the base and schedule that I have will just have to do for now. I do have some great suggestions from everyone here that I do think will allow me to sustain and maybe improve my fitness, perhaps year round with somewhat slower tempos and intervals, and by slowing down on my LR`s.
              "I never said it was going to be easy. I only said it would be worth it."


              Hawt and sexy

                My slow improvements come from treadmill training in the winter. Don't tell the regular MAFfers this, but once winter hits, and I am on the treadmill, I ditch the HRM for all but one run every 3 weeks. That run is my MAF test. That how I increase my pace. This time it has been a steady increase, but my overall mileage is down due to new commitments this year. My largest increases came from putting in 80-90 mile weeks like I was doing at this time last year. When I move back out to the road and don the HRM daily, the times will be more erratic again. If you really want to know more about how I train, start browsing the MAF/LHR trainer forum here and read the stickies available there. 40-50 mpw huge mileage? Not even close. That is a recovery week for some. And yes, my hips/knees were sore at first. My tendons needed to toughen up. If you are going to fast, they will get injured instead of toughening up. Speedwork should be seasonal for the most part. This greatly reduces the risk of injury and burnout. Pick one or two goal races. You really should not expect to be competitive for months at a time. It is an unreasonable stress to put on the body. Meh, whatever floats your boat I guess. MTA-You do not lose fitness by slowing down, you lose conditioning. There is a difference. Going back to a base phase does not mean you are taking a step backward. You are coming out of a race season and building onto what you have work so hard to obtain. It is true you will not be race ready, but you are not suddenly unfit either.

                I'm touching your pants.


                The Greatest of All Time

                  It's simply not true that you have to do speedwork to get faster. If you're trying to shave those last couple of seconds off, sure, but over the long term you'll get better results from mileage and tempos.
                  Not to split hairs Mikey, but I consider tempos to be speedwork, but that's just me.
                  all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

                  Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.
                    My slow improvements come from treadmill training in the winter. Don't tell the regular MAFfers this, but once winter hits, and I am on the treadmill, I ditch the HRM for all but one run every 3 weeks. That run is my MAF test. That how I increase my pace. This time it has been a steady increase, but my overall mileage is down due to new commitments this year. My largest increases came from putting in 80-90 mile weeks like I was doing at this time last year. When I move back out to the road and don the HRM daily, the times will be more erratic again. If you really want to know more about how I train, start browsing the MAF/LHR trainer forum here and read the stickies available there. 40-50 mpw huge mileage? Not even close. That is a recovery week for some. And yes, my hips/knees were sore at first. My tendons needed to toughen up. If you are going to fast, they will get injured instead of toughening up. Speedwork should be seasonal for the most part. This greatly reduces the risk of injury and burnout. Pick one or two goal races. You really should not expect to be competitive for months at a time. It is an unreasonable stress to put on the body. Meh, whatever floats your boat I guess. MTA-You do not lose fitness by slowing down, you lose conditioning. There is a difference. Going back to a base phase does not mean you are taking a step backward. You are coming out of a race season and building onto what you have work so hard to obtain. It is true you will not be race ready, but you are not suddenly unfit either.
                    Great, thanks for the clarification on your pace info...that makes sense. I guess I will just build back up to my desired 40 mpw (I have no desire to run more than that) and keep adding to my tempo over the next couple of months. MTA: I might check out the MAF threads, thanks. I hated even wearing a watch-but I have built a relationship with the Garmin I am beginning to enjoy. It has really slowed me down, in a good way.
                    Mr R


                      "Doing speedwork" is a loosely defined phrase. A lot of people seem to think of speedwork as a binary proposition: you're either training till you vomit, or you're just doing easy miles. I'll be the voice of dissent and say that everyone should do speedwork, all year long, with the possible exceptions being those in their first 3 months of running, and those who are significantly overweight. You won't overtrain if you don't kill yourself. Most workouts should leave you feeling invigorated. My method is to get on the track 52 weeks/year, if only to lightly touch all of my key paces. I think this keeps you from losing fitness that you've gained, and also improves economy. An example: If I'm preparing to peak for a cross race in November, I might be doing 6x1 mile at VO2max pace, with 400 recovery. I would do this for about 8 weeks (every other week). This is really tough training for me. Then in early January, with key track races not for many months, I might do 4x1k at VO2max, with a 600 recovery. This is a minimal stress, that allows me to keep my gains from the previous season. I've also found, that if I stop doing speedwork, my easy pace slips. I feel sluggish and inefficient. When I first started doing speedwork, 6:50 was on the fast end for my easy pace. Within about 6 weeks, it was more like 6:15.

                      What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles, Miles of Trials. How could they be expected to understand that? -John Parker

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