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Seeking any Guidance on how I can further improve. - Hillwork? (Read 197 times)

    To begin, I retire in 5 weeks from the USN, so that basically means that I have turned over most duties to other people.  This also means that I have a ton of time during the day to think about running and how to improve what I am doing!   It also means that I will be able to greatly increase my mileage and training time while I am on terminal leave.  I'll have nothing else to do, but a "honey do" list, and I'm not spending the entire day on that!

     

    My charts cover most of what I have been doing, which is usually Long runs, with short tempo runs on the days inbetween.  On any day that I feel fatigued, I do an "easy" 2 miler, then hit it hard again a day or two later.  I also do a race every single weekend.  Anywhere from a 5k to a marathon or longer.   I don't have a set plan, and I don't want to really do a set plan.    But... since my times at all distances are improving and since my 5K PR has dropped to a 21:29 (last weekend), I want to add in to my schedule what is needed in order to get to a <19:59 5K (If possible). Smile

     

    ---Things I know I am missing for certain:  Terrain/Hills.  Almost all of my running is on completely flat ground.  VA Beach is flat, but we have a hill here in the area called "Mount Trashmore".  It is a park now, one of those converted former landfills.  The elevation of it is about 60 or 70 feet high, pretty steep incline.   I have always avoided it so far and jus run laps around it, not over it.

     

    I was thinking what might be good to do is a 2 mile lap around it at maybe Tempo Pace, then perhaps do 2 miles(ish) of running up and over the hill at a fast pace to near exhaustion, followed by doing another 2 mile lap around the hill to cool down and finish off?   --- Any suggestions on what I can add to my current plan to take it to the next level would be appreciated!

    The Plan (big parts)→  /// April:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (PR 80 Miles) ///  Nov:  New York Marathon  ///  Dec:  Seashore State Park 50K  ///  ∞

      The best thing you could do to take your running to the next level would be to begin running twice daily. Add a 30 minute run to what you are currently doing every morning (or evening if you are already a morning runner.) Lunchtime also works.

        If you are going to continue to race every weekend then you don't need to do much else in terms of workouts (and you probably shouldn't.)

         

        More mileage will be the #1 thing that will help you. Then maybe a mid-week long run with a fast-ish finish and either strides/drills or hill charges on one of the other mid-week days.

         

        I would also try to organize your week along a hard/easy pattern. Your log doesn't make a ton of sense to me (you seem to have a lot of 2 mile runs and 16 minute tempos with no warmup or cooldown the day after a long run) but I may be missing something. Anyway, I would try to put most of your volume and quality into 2 or 3 days a week, and make the other 4/5 days be easy runs of 45 - 60 minutes.

         

        Something like:

         

        Mon - 60 minutes easy

        Tue - 90 minutes with the last 3 miles working down to LT or some kind of fartlek

        Wed - 45 minutes easy

        Thu - 70 minutes with 10 x strides or 10 x 30 second hill charges

        Fri - 45 minutes easy

        Sat - 90+ minutes including 5k to 13.1 mi race

        Sun - 45 minutes very easy

         

        You might have to work up to that--start with 30 minute easy days etc. Once you get to something that looks like the schedule above do that for a few months and let it do its work. Then, you can start to add doubles on the easy days to continue build volume.

         

        My 2 cents.

         

        mta: Although looking at the list of races in your signature it seems like you're looking to focus on ultras in which case I'm not much help.

        Runners run.

          The best thing you could do to take your running to the next level would be to begin running twice daily. Add a 30 minute run to what you are currently doing every morning (or evening if you are already a morning runner.) Lunchtime also works.

           

          Would you recommend this to someone who runs about 5 days a week?  The two off days are not by choice, but most of the other days I will have an opportunity to run multiple times in a day (sometimes even 3)

            Thank you Jeff and Mikeymike....  I will try the "multiple runs per day" idea on some occasions.  I certainly will have time in the schedule to do that.

            And on the 2-mile tempos following long run days with no real warmup and cooldown, that is pretty correct the way I charted it.  -- I call it "muscle confusion?" lol.  I rarely do the same thing twice, and sometimes it has ended up being back to back (times 4) long runs on 4 consecutive days.  I think as I near my full potential, I may need to settle into a structured weekly plan for a time.

             

            Also, "focusing on long distances", well, since I am relatively new to running, I am focusing on everything at one time.  My distances are geting longer, and my times across all ranges are getting faster.  One is not adversely affecting the other, so far.

            So I want to have my cake and eat it too:  IE.  Be able to put down a sub 20:00 5K and be able to do an 80+ mile performance in a 24-hour race. :-)

            The Plan (big parts)→  /// April:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (PR 80 Miles) ///  Nov:  New York Marathon  ///  Dec:  Seashore State Park 50K  ///  ∞

            zonykel


              To begin, I retire in 5 weeks from the USN...

              Congrats! Good luck on your transition.

              DoppleBock


                Fair winds and following seas to you!

                 

                I do not follow a plan very closely, but I see value in different workouts.  I personally have endurance until the cows come home, so my issue is speed.

                 

                Speed

                Short hill workouts (20-90 second reps)  Pure speed will be the shorter bursts

                Fast running on flat ground (200-600 meter or 30 second to 2 minute reps) again pure speed the shorter

                Fartleks (Combination of mutiple time or distance segments ~ 20-40-60-80-100-120 seconds)

                Drills - Look them up this is missing from a lot of peoples workouts (mine included)

                 

                Tempo runs

                Lactate threshold (LAT)- Can take many forms ~ easiest is to run 20-25 minutes at your 10 mile race pace

                Lactate threshold - can take may forms 5x1 mile with 2-4 minutes rest or 2 or 3 or 4x2 miles with 2-4 minutes rest.

                Lactate threshold - I tend to run most my workouts by time, so 5x1 mile might become 5x6.5 minutes

                Long Tempos - Run slower than LAT - I tend to run out at a slower pace and then run back closer to Marathon pace (6-11 miles)

                 

                Strength

                Running a hilly course

                Slower hill repeats (I call grinding the hill)

                More mileage

                Cross training

                Core work

                Long runs

                 

                V02 max

                You will hit close to this in a 5k or shorter race run hard.

                I use as a peaking strategy the last 4-6 weeks before a goal race

                It takes approximately 2 minutes to get to max hear rate from a recovered state, so either you need short rest intervals or speed intervals that last longer than 2 minutes (2 mile race pace to 30 minute race pace will touch it)

                 

                Conlcusion

                I tend to keep a loose schedule, knowing what type of workouts I want to do each week ~ but not the exact workout or the exact day.  I do find that it takes me doing a particular workout 3 consecutive weeks in a row to get it right (Find the right pace to do it at).

                 

                If I had a race Saturday - I might want to do 1 day of short and fast running (moderate effort) and one day of LAT workout (moderate effort)

                 

                I do think LAT has a place every week.  But if you are racing 10k-1/2 marathon, then it can be in place of LAT

                I do think something faster has a place every week - But if you are running a 1 mile to 5k, then that race could take its place.

                http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                 

                DoppleBock


                  Even though you do not want a set plan - I could see a progression.  Start with doing shorter hill reps and shorter really fast reps for a period of time.  Add some drills and striders.  Let the weekend races be your LAT and or Tempo runs.  Do this for 8 weeks.  These workouts are easier to recover from, so you can add mileage during this time.

                   

                  After that start increasing the length of hill reps and speed reps (Do one per week - What ever you feel like) and add LAT running (what ever you feel like)  The LAT should start out easier and build to harder workouts, but don't sweat it, do it on the day you feel like and do the LAT workout you feel like ~ 2 miles or 20 minutes @LAT is just fine, but if you feel good do a little more.

                   

                  It does not really matter - I just think that you do not have to have a plant to have a general vision.  But if all you did was run a little more consistent, add a few miles, run fast when you feel like running fast, run long when you feel like running long and race on weekends you will improve.

                  http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                  2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                   

                  J-L-C


                    I'll echo what's already been stated about simply running more.

                     

                    Consistency in training and getting out the door every day and multiple times a day is probably the simplest and most effective way for many people to improve.

                     

                    In my experience I've found a surprisingly small amount of harder/faster running can go a long way when the consistent daily mileage is put in. My best results started coming when I started running more often with less actual hard running. It was really surprising at first!

                     

                    i don't think hills are all that important comparatively and obviously you can be quite successful simply by improving your overall power and managing weight.

                    J-L-C


                       

                      Would you recommend this to someone who runs about 5 days a week?  The two off days are not by choice, but most of the other days I will have an opportunity to run multiple times in a day (sometimes even 3)

                       

                      Since you have built-in rest days you can probably stack up the other days a bit more with no ill effect. I'd start off by trying one or two doubles and then go from there. Overtime you may enjoy doing that more often and even consider triples. ;D

                        Yeah,  I'm not sure the frequent tempos are the best use of your time.

                         

                        Even at your current 5K time, to get over 80 miles in a 24 hour shouldn't be hard.  Your endurance is going to mean so much more.

                        And at your weekly mileage and current training, I think running more is going to improve your 5K time, as well.

                         

                         

                        " which is usually Long runs, with short tempo runs on the days inbetween.  On any day that I feel fatigued, I do an "easy" 2 miler, then hit it hard again a day or two later"

                         

                        I'm not saying never do speed, but a 2 mile tempo every day to three is not the best...  Add some more easy runs with some more mileage.  And the quality doesn't always have to be two miles or tempo.   You don't need to follow a plan but some more structure and rhyme and reason to what and why you are doing will probably yield big results.

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        MikeyMike's advice is good - even for ultras- movement from where you are.  Consistent running.

                        If you are going to continue to race every weekend then you don't need to do much else in terms of workouts (and you probably shouldn't.)

                         

                        More mileage will be the #1 thing that will help you. Then maybe a mid-week long run with a fast-ish finish and either strides/drills or hill charges on one of the other mid-week days.

                         

                        I would also try to organize your week along a hard/easy pattern. Your log doesn't make a ton of sense to me (you seem to have a lot of 2 mile runs and 16 minute tempos with no warmup or cooldown the day after a long run) but I may be missing something. Anyway, I would try to put most of your volume and quality into 2 or 3 days a week, and make the other 4/5 days be easy runs of 45 - 60 minutes.

                         

                        Something like:

                         

                        Mon - 60 minutes easy

                        Tue - 90 minutes with the last 3 miles working down to LT or some kind of fartlek

                        Wed - 45 minutes easy

                        Thu - 70 minutes with 10 x strides or 10 x 30 second hill charges

                        Fri - 45 minutes easy

                        Sat - 90+ minutes including 5k to 13.1 mi race

                        Sun - 45 minutes very easy

                         

                        You might have to work up to that--start with 30 minute easy days etc. Once you get to something that looks like the schedule above do that for a few months and let it do its work. Then, you can start to add doubles on the easy days to continue build volume.

                         

                        My 2 cents.

                         

                        mta: Although looking at the list of races in your signature it seems like you're looking to focus on ultras in which case I'm not much help.

                         

                        PR's (certified courses)

                        5K-; 21:45 ; 10K- 45:17; Half: 1:41 --- full : 3:40   (2009)

                        Distance - 54 mi, 10 hours (2012)

                         

                        Current Weight: 174 lb

                        Goal Weight: 130 lb

                         

                        Nov9 -- Peachtree City 50K/25K!   http://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=27700

                          Congrats! Good luck on your transition.

                           

                          +1.  It's been said already but just run more.


                          Rusk Runner

                            No advice for you on you running.  Just wanted to say, from one old retired sailor to another, "Fair winds and following seas"!

                             

                            I hope your future journeys are safe and happy.

                            PRs...5K - 20:36, 4mile - 26:15, 13.1 - 1:32, 26.2 - 3:42

                            Just Run!!!

                            bob2121


                              The advice given thus far is all pretty solid, but I would add two things:

                               

                              1) Decrease the difference between a long day and an easy day.  To do this, bring up your easy days like mikeymike suggested, or check out Jeff's log, it looks much more balanced.

                               

                              2) Read.  You can learn a lot about what is good for your body from books like "Daniels' Training Formula" (Jack Daniels).  I read this one and can speak for its quality.  Another to try is "Running to the Top" (Arthur Lydiard - if you think you want to add hills, Lydiard might be a better choice).  Lydiard and Daniels are considered some of the best coaches ever.  There is no need to follow their advice word for word, but it would definitely help to get a general idea of what a good training program looks like.

                               

                              Best of luck

                              PRs:  3k - 9:17, 5k - 15:56, half - 1:23 

                                Thanks for all the advice folks, I will begin to modify my routine and see if I can achieve my goals.  Should be seeing some great results as I work through the summer on it and results really start to show in the cooler fall temps

                                 

                                Also, thanks for the well wishes post-retirement from the USN as well.  It was a great tour, saw over 20 countries, but after 20 years, I am glad to be moving on to a new chapter.  The only traveling I will be doing now is to RACES, and things I pick to go to!  Big grin

                                The Plan (big parts)→  /// April:  Hampton, VA 24 Hour Run for Cancer (PR 80 Miles) ///  Nov:  New York Marathon  ///  Dec:  Seashore State Park 50K  ///  ∞

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