12345

Is 3:30 unrealistic for the first time marathon runner? (Read 1803 times)


I'm back!

    If you can find a copy of the 1st edition of Pfitzinger's book, it also has 24-week plans. I used the 55/24 plan for my first marathon.

     

    MTA -- looks like this plan is now available online:

     

    http://www.derekleewo.com/djapps/trainingPlans/viewPlan/4/

      If you can find a copy of the 1st edition of Pfitzinger's book, it also has 24-week plans. I used the 55/24 plan for my first marathon.

       

      MTA -- looks like this plan is now available online:

       

      http://www.derekleewo.com/djapps/trainingPlans/viewPlan/4/

       

      That is what I found as well. 3 days rest at the beginning seem a lot of rest.

       

      MTA -- I think my current training pace is too fast. Most my training are under 8:00 pace. Last Sunday I did 7.5m at 7:27. I think I can handle more mileages if I slow down a bit. Am I not patient enough?

      5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - avg 6:10/mi for 4mi (29/08/14)


      I'm back!

        Well, you will be doing longer runs on that plan than you are doing now. You will probably want the rest days. And yes, you might find yourself wanting to slow down. If 7:27 pace feels easy and you are on the schedule, then that's great; you'd be on track for well under 3:30.

         

        I would think your "general aerobic" runs on this plan would normally be in the 8:00 - 8:30 range if you are thinking 3:30.

          I've followed Pfitz a couple of times... but have had issues with niggles/minor injury. I've just bought a copy of the new Hanson's marathon training book and next time round plan to give that a whirl. The differences are not huge - but you don't run as far in any one run - the longest run is 16 miles, and you do seem to do more running at marathon pace - there's a medium length marathon pace run midweek in the schedules.


          I'm back!

            Wow, I'd be skeptical of a plan than maxed out at 16. The point about more MP runs is a good one, in fact that's one of the changes from the 1st to 2nd edition Pfitzinger books. There are more MP runs in the new plans.

              Wow, I'd be skeptical of a plan than maxed out at 16. 

               

              We shall see. The theory they're working to is that the schedule ensures that you're sufficiently fatigued going into the long run that it feels like the last section of the marathon... not the first.

               

              Who knows what's best? I do suspect that weekly mileage is more important than length of long run.

                I totally agree with the other participants in this thread that you have a very good chance of running the marathon sub-3.30 in May. I took a quick glance at your log and it looks as if a lot of your runs are at a fast pace, much faster than 8 minutes per mile.

                 

                I also have some suggestions:

                 

                1. Read the Hadd document and try to follow his base training: http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf I think that this will force you to run some of your trips at a lower pace. His ideas resemble Lydiard's very much which I like.

                2. Read Daniels' Running Formula and follow one of his plans. They have a lot of variety and you get suggested paces for each run. Furthermore, you will be able to make your own schedules based on this book.

                3. Read Pfitzinger's book. It  is good for many runners. I definitely prefer Daniels' plans but I guess it is a matter of taste.

                4. Buy a plan from running-wizard. These plans are based on Lydiard. I'm going to try to break 3 hours in May 2013 and I have bought a schedule at this site. The training will commence on 2. December. Then we could see if the plans are good for us Smile

                 

                Good luck.

                  1. Read the Hadd document and try to follow his base training: http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf I think that this will force you to run some of your trips at a lower pace. His ideas resemble Lydiard's very much which I like.

                   

                  Wow, what a great article. I read a lot of LT and VO2Max and easy run including Pfitzinger's book, but I had never been able to register the connection into my brain. Now I get it and also understand why the slow long run is important to move the LT up.

                  5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - avg 6:10/mi for 4mi (29/08/14)

                    The Hadd article is really good. But note well that it's describing a regime intended to prepare you to be able to train harder - it's not the end of the story as far as training goes (at least according to him).

                      Well, you will be doing longer runs on that plan than you are doing now. You will probably want the rest days. And yes, you might find yourself wanting to slow down. If 7:27 pace feels easy and you are on the schedule, then that's great; you'd be on track for well under 3:30.

                       

                      I would think your "general aerobic" runs on this plan would normally be in the 8:00 - 8:30 range if you are thinking 3:30.

                       

                      That is a big question for me: Feel easy. 65-79% of HRmax or ~50bpm below HRmax. For a beginner like me, I can't tell it. I feel comfortable enough but I don't know if the HR is above 80% or not.

                       

                      Definitely I can tell the difference between easy and tempo run when I execute it. Last tempo I did the pace @ 6:54 for 2.75m in 19 minutes (on a flat trail though). However, it might not be within 88-92% HRmax.

                       

                      So I got another question related to this HR. Are the Garmin watches with a HR monitor accurate? I keep reading people saying (including you in your log) the Garmin got mental sometimes, lost GPS signal etc.

                      5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - avg 6:10/mi for 4mi (29/08/14)

                        The Hadd article is really good. But note well that it's describing a regime intended to prepare you to be able to train harder - it's not the end of the story as far as training goes (at least according to him).

                         

                        From what I understand, if you can run a faster pace with a lower HR under your LT after the training, your fitness is there for a fast marathon. That is the purpose of training. Right?

                        5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08  (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - avg 6:10/mi for 4mi (29/08/14)

                          From what I understand, if you can run a faster pace with a lower HR under your LT after the training, your fitness is there for a fast marathon. That is the purpose of training. Right?

                           

                          The Hadd article describes base building, which is the sine qua non of distance training.

                           

                          But if you think that you can get fast by jogging around really slow, you are mistaken.

                            I would hardly say that Hadd's miles are just jogs. On Tuesdays and Fridays, the heart rate is quite high with an hour of running; this should be about marathon pace. Exactly the same idea is used in Healthy Intelligent Training in the aerobic phase which is Lydiard. In Hadd's example, you can also see that Joe gets fast.

                              I would hardly say that Hadd's miles are just jogs. On Tuesdays and Fridays, the heart rate is quite high with an hour of running; this should be about marathon pace. Exactly the same idea is used in Healthy Intelligent Training in the aerobic phase which is Lydiard. In Hadd's example, you can also see that Joe gets fast.

                               

                              Sure, he got a guy who had run a 2:27 marathon to run a 71 minute half off of base training. That sounds about right. Smile

                               

                              I know that Hadd also talked in other writings about Joe being a certain "type" of runner -- namely the sort of guy who responds to high volume, lower intensity work.

                               

                              The principles of Hadd are totally sound, but in my opinion the article is at least sometimes used to draw unwarranted conclusions about low heart rate training.


                              I'm back!

                                So I got another question related to this HR. Are the Garmin watches with a HR monitor accurate? I keep reading people saying (including you in your log) the Garmin got mental sometimes, lost GPS signal etc.

                                 

                                I haven't used my Garmin HR monitor in quite a while -- I trained with a HR monitor my first year, but then I was using a Nike Triax Elite watch, not a Garmin. But I believe it's pretty accurate. Anyway it has nothing to do with GPS signals, just a matter of good contact with your chest. Generally if it is off because of bad contact, it is way off, and you will know.

                                12345