Forums >Racing>Help me pick a marathon plan!
Cross-posted from one of my groups, if this looks familiar.
I am training for the Portland Marathon, which will be my first. It's in October. Since whatever plan I pick will become a huge part of my life for most of the summer and fall, I'd like to make sure that I'm choosing one that's going to be a good fit. Also, even though it will be a debut marathon, I think I have enough of a base that I absolutely plan to run it as a race, not just an "experience the marathon" sort of event. So I want a plan that will be challenging enough to get me to the starting line well prepared.
Background on me:
I've been running for about two years, and my 3rd HM is this coming Sunday. I trained for two of my HMs using the 50-MPW plan in Pfitz's "Road Running for Serious Runners." I'm really comfortable in the 40-some MPW level now, and can run up to 50 MPW with speedwork (LR, MLR, and speedwork a la Pfitz). I've run up to 70 MPW before with no speedwork, but honestly that week took a lot out of me. For LR's, I've done 15 so far a few times. I'm pretty consistent with my training and can comfortably run 6 days a week or doubles if needed.
My weaknesses:
I think I'm still new enough that my body hasn't necessarily adapted to the level of training that the mind and lungs are really wanting to do. I'd love to peak at 70 MPW, but I don't know that's realistic this time around. I'm pretty sure I could get up into the mid-60s, though, over the course of my training. But I might have to adjust that depending on how things go.
I'm used to doing my long runs as true long slow runs. I mean, they've been in the proper pace range according to the Daniels calculator, but I haven't run a lot of MP miles or done much work on pace on LR days. Realistically, I think I'd be able to add to the distance of my LRs, OR add quality work to my LRs, but I don't know that I could do both.
I probably am a slower runner than what most of the authors of plans are considering, so if the long runs are by distance, I could probably only do 18 miles before going over the "3 hour" limit that I hear about.
Other considerations:
I'll be in San Jose, Costa Rica from June-August. During that time, I won't have a regular job, but I will be on call 24/7, so I'm not sure how that will impact my training. I should have more overall time to train than I usually do, really. It's just that if I am called away, I might not have the ability to make up a run. I don't know exactly where I'll be staying, but I expect it to be safe to run alone during daylight hours, and not safe at night. There are gyms available, but it doesn't look like I can expect 24-hour access as far as ability to fit runs in to odd hours if I need to.
Plans I'm NOT considering:
Higdon: Probably unreasonably biased against him, but it would take a strong argument to convince me otherwise.
Running Wizard: Actually might be a good fit for me another time, but when I'm in Costa Rica I may have limited access to the internet and to a scale, so this time around it doesn't seem practical.
Plans I am considering:
Daniels' "4-week cycle": I like the idea of the 4-week "mini cycles" , and it sort of looks like you can choose a reasonable mileage target for each 4-week cycle and maybe adjust for the next one. So I could build up as far as I could each cycle, but don't have to decide on a firm mileage peak right away (either that or he really does have you running peak miles for the first time 22 weeks before the marathon, in which case, wtf?). I like that most of the LRs are by time, although there are a few mileage-based ones. Maybe that's a good balance? The higher-mileage week with no speedwork every 4th week sort of appeals to me and the way I've run so far. The "16 miles at MP plus 50 minutes easy" run is a serious WTF, though. Although those start at 10 miles at MP and build up, so I guess I'd know what to expect going in to that one.
Hansons: I don't have the book yet, it should be here on Tuesday. Capping the LR at 16 but focusing on running it at a faster pace does sound like it might be a good fit for me, though. That would keep me well within the 3-hour window the whole time, and maybe help me focus on not letting my LRs become long, slow slogs. I should be able to handle the higher overall volume during the rest of the week, I think. But, like I said, I haven't had a chance to look over what's in the book yet.
Pfitz 18/55 or 18/70: I was originally considering these, because I have seen firsthand the results of his HM plans. They push me, but I also get better! And tired. I am probably not the 20-something 6-minute-miler that I suspect he's writing for, though, and I wonder if his long runs and medium long runs would just be too much time on my feet at my pace. Also, I think I fall somewhere awkwardly between 55 and 70 MPW as a target peak level.
Thoughts, suggestions, and other perspectives are welcome!
an amazing likeness
First of all, I believe you could run a sub-4:00 marathon today based on your current base and training focus. You'd get to 21 - 23 feeling ok, then struggle it, but be under 4:00
Second, you don't need to push up in weekly miles to 60-70 mpw to meet the goals you have for yourself, your current 40-50 mpw will support it with less risk of pushing too much, too soon. Moving up to steady 50 with fallback to 40 and occasional push to 60 will give you a better life balance...you are still early in your running career.
Third, check out this nice comparison of the plans by bhearn.
Acceptable at a dance, invaluable in a shipwreck.
Just my opinion:
- I've tried a few plans and results have been quite similar. For me, choosing a plan and sticking with it is the key.
- I liked the Pfitz plan, but I never did the 18 week plan - that's a long time to get ready and for me motivation would flag a bit. 12 weeks is enough, but…
- I liked Hansons more. I prefer to run quicker than longer, and if you have other races on your agenda it keeps you in good shape for shorter races.
- A final plug, one other plan worth a look - Marius Bakken's 100 day marathon plan. Worth reading the reviews. It's only available in e-book format. It's short, but has plans for various time goals and some nice tips which I hadn't seen elsewhere.
I ran 3:56:52 in my first marathon. My target was 3:57. I had only been running for 8 months so I didn't have time to build up the mileage. I had been doing weights and cardio in the gym for a year before I started running. I think it really helped that I did 2 of my 20 milers at marathon pace overall with big negative splits. Most people would disagree.
Mon, Aug 1 ; 3 MilesTue, Aug 2 ; Full body workoutWed, Aug 3 ; 8 x 400Thu, Aug 4 ; Full body workoutFri, Aug 5 ; RestSat, Aug 6 ; 20 miles @ 8:50 paceSun, Aug 7 ; Full body workout
Mon, Aug 8 ; 5 milesTue, Aug 9 ; Full body workoutWed, Aug 10 ; Pickups 1x1, 1x2, 4x4 minsThu, Aug 11 ; RestFri, Aug 12 ; Upper body workoutSat, Aug 13 ; 11 milesSun, Aug 14 ; Full body workout
Mon, Aug 15 ; 7 milesTue, Aug 16 ; Full body workoutWed, Aug 17 ; Pickups 6 x 1Thu, Aug 18 ; Upper body workoutFri, Aug 19 ; RestSat, Aug 20 ; Race 5 milesSun, Aug 21 ; Full body workout
Mon, Aug 22 ; 3 milesTue, Aug 23 ; Rest/travelWed, Aug 24 ; RestThu, Aug 25 ; 9.5 mile hikeFri, Aug 26 ; 3 miles run untimedSat, Aug 27 ; XC Race Trail 12K (7.5 miles)Sun, Aug 28 ; Rest/travel
Mon, Aug 29 ; 5 milesTue, Aug 30 ; Full body workoutWed, Aug 31 ; 10 miles Reverse SplitsThu, Sep 1 ; RestFri, Sep 2 ; Upper body workoutSat, Sep 3 ; 14 milesSun, Sep 4 ; Henry Isola XC (4M)
Mon, Sep 5 ; 8 milesTue, Sep 6 ; Chest workoutWed, Sep 7 ; Easy RunThu, Sep 8 ; Missed workout - restFri, Sep 9 ; RestSat, Sep 10 ; Race 18 milesSun, Sep 11 ; Full body workout
Mon, Sep 12 ; Easy 6 milesTue, Sep 13 ; RestWed, Sep 14 ; Pickups, 4x2m,4x4m,1 min rest & UBWThu, Sep 15 ; SickFri, Sep 16 ; SickSat, Sep 17 ; Sick
Sun, Sep 18 ; 4 miles long easy
Mon, Sep 19 ; SickTue, Sep 20 ; SickWed, Sep 21 ; SickThu, Sep 22 ; SickFri, Sep 23 ; Light running intervalsSat, Sep 24 ; Race 1 mileSun, Sep 25 ; Race 5K
Mon, Sep 26;Lower body workout
Tue, Sep 27;6 miles easy
Wed, Sep 28;3 x 10 minute pickups
Thu, Sep 29;Rest
Fri, Sep 30;Upper Body Workout
Sat, Oct 1;Race 3.5 miles
Sun, Oct 2;Race 13.1 miles
Mon, Oct 3;4 miles long easy
Tue, Oct 4; Lower body workout
Wed, Oct 5: Speed, 1/2 and 3/4 mile pickups
Thu, Oct 6;Upper body workout
Fri, Oct 7;Rest
Sat, Oct 8;Race made in to Long training run 20 mls (8:36 pace)
Sun, Oct 9;Full body workout
Mon, Oct 10;Sick (8 miles scheduled)
Tue, Oct 11; Sick
Wed, Oct 12;8 mile tempo
Thu, Oct 13;4 miles easy
Fri, Oct 14;Rest
Sat, Oct 15;5 miles
Sun, Oct 16;Race 13.1 miles (Staten Is PR)
Mon, Oct 17; Upper body workout
Tue, Oct 18;3.5 miles (1 pickup)
Wed, Oct 19;3 x 3/4 & 3 x 1/2 mile pickups
Thu, Oct 20;Easy Run
Fri, Oct 21;Rest
Sat, Oct 22;20 miles (10:24 pace as I was running with a group of slow runners and we kept getting lost)
Sun, Oct 23;3 miles recovery
Mon, Oct 24;5.1432 miles
Tue, Oct 25;Rest
Wed, Oct 26;3 x 1 mile pickups
Thu, Oct 27;Full body workout
Fri, Oct 28;Sick
Sat, Oct 29;Sick
Sun, Oct 30;Race 5 miles +1 mile warmup
Start 3 week taper
Some of those races were at tempo pace.
The sick days turned out to be because of allergies but probably did more good than harm as it meant I was getting more rest.
I ran a 3:48:52 marathon 7 weeks later. It took me almost 6 years to beat that PR working with coaches, using higher mileage and fewer fast workouts, indicating that intensity was more important to me than distance.
Certified Running CoachCrocked since 2013
Or you could have made your log public, rather than type all of that. Unless you had this all on some other place than RA.
Plans I'm NOT considering: Higdon: Probably unreasonably biased against him.
Higdon: Probably unreasonably biased against him.
Why the anti-Higdon bias? Just curious as to your thoughts since you gave a little teaser.
Plans I'm NOT considering: *** Running Wizard: Actually might be a good fit for me another time, but when I'm in Costa Rica I may have limited access to the internet and to a scale, so this time around it doesn't seem practical.
***
Hi Zelanie,
Why the anti-Running Wizard bias? The internet and the scale are maybe needed to use the daily Recovery Indicators feature, but I wouldn't rule out using the Running Wizard program just because you'll temporarily be losing an extra feature that the other programs don't have. The Recovery Indicator basically gives feedback on how well you've recovered from prior workouts, which is nice, but not essential, IMHO. (I've gotten pretty lax about using that feature lately myself.)
That said, I'm very interested in trying the Hanson's plan at some point.
Good luck on your choice and enjoy Costa Rica!
So I want a plan that will be challenging enough to get me to the starting line well prepared.
For a first time marathoner, I would recommend Pfitz 18/55. It's a proven, easy-to-follow plan. I am biased because I've followed Pfitz for all but my current marathon cycle. For all but my first, I got to the starting line feeling completely prepared for the race. (And, you can add some miles here and there if you want to get to 60-65 mpw by comparing the 18/55 to the 18/70 and seeing where he adds miles).
I haven't followed Hanson's but borrowed some things of his for my current marathon cycle that I threw together myself from various approaches. I would want to run some 20 milers before my first marathon. If only because I wouldn't have the added stress of trying to answer why I'm not running any 20 milers. (I would also want to see some tune-up races but you could always add those). The only knock I have against Daniels is that it's not a daily plan. I used his shorter distance race plans before I moved up to the marathon and thought the workouts were challenging but doable. I didn't like the idea that I'd have to fill in the gaps and structure the week myself for the marathon plan. Now, it doesn't scare me as much.
I think you'll notice they all have a lot in common and people have great races following all these plans, so you don't have to worry about making the "wrong" choice. Good luck deciding!
My blog is JT Running DC. It's awesome. Guide to Washington DC Area Running Routes. Guide to the New York City Marathon. Guide to the Boston Marathon. Guide to Running Gear. Guide to Running Clothes.
Thanks for the replies, everyone! Having more than one good option is a good place to be, I suppose.
milktruck: I hope you're right! Time will tell, though. Thanks for that link- I had been looking for that thread earlier but hadn't come managed to find it.
I don't mind the longer time for a plan. I've ended up running only a handful of goal races each year anyway, so staying focused for the length of a plan doesn't seem to be an issue. On the other hand, I have a tough time structuring downtime between plans.
gpb: Maybe this is unreasonable, but I see Higdon's plans as basically preparing people to be able to get the the finish line, bucket list style. And there are tons of people who want just that, so it's great that he's there. Maybe there's more to his plans than that, but that's my bias.
SubDood- Point taken about RW, I would just want to use all aspects of the program if I were to try it out. Especially for a first marathon. Not knocking the program at all!
Julia- That's a good point in that not running 20 milers might seem like a good idea now, but what will it feel like on race day? Even if it's "better" preparation.
Zelanie - Thanks. That's a reasonable assessment of the Higdon novice plans, and a reasonable interpretation of the lack of speedwork in the intermediate marathon ones as well. Your running volume puts you more in between the intermediate and advanced plans in my (not so expert) opinion though.
I was curious only because I've typically based my training on a Higdon model and have been satisfied with the results. It's been a while since I've done a full marathon (3:30) but did just run a 1:43 half (M45-49 age group)
In any event, you have to feel you can trust the plan you're following, and it has to work with your personal preferences and schedule. If you feel a plan isn't a good fit, then by all means you should not use it.
My log is on an Excel spreadsheet. Happy to remove it if you want.
No, was just encouraging all to share their running log, one of the reasons I use this site.
Hey Zel, you're ahead of me with the same question. In about one year I'll have to choose what program to follow for my first marathon.
The program I now follow for a 10k works only by time. To me a "long run" is so many minutes. Intervals are so many minutes at 5k pace, then rest (jog) for so long. And so on. It’s from a French Canadian coach and it is too bad it is only in French. I’ve read Pfitz Advanced Marathoning and The Hansons Marathon Method (2 times each), and the book from Cloutier advocates pretty much the same principles (mostly slow runs, fast intervals, always an easy day between hard days, etc.), but they are applied differently. One of the major differences is that all workouts are by time. So I understand you liking the idea of Daniels’ four week cycles in which the LRs are by time. At first I found it a bit weird, but now I love it.
As you know I can’t advise you on a better (or best) plan, as I have no more experience than you in marathoning, but I’m curious to know which plan you’ll choose, and the reasons why you choose it.
The Irreverent Reverend
I've been using Hansons for the past few months, and my marathon is on Saturday (Carmel Marathon, Carmel, Indiana). I feel great and ready to go for my goal - 3:30. In fact, I feel like I could go well beyond the goal, but I'm going to stick to the 3:25-3:30 pace groups. Last thing I want to do it go out too fast and crash and burn.
I'll let you know how the race goes, but in general I have really liked the plan. I came into it with a weak base, and that messed me up a little bit about two months ago, but I'm much better now. As long as I get somewhere near my goal of 3:30, I'll be using this plan again.
Husband. Father of three. Lutheran pastor. National Guardsman. Runner. Political junkie. Baseball fan.
Consistently Slow
I BQ'ed with the Pfitzinger 18/55. Did not to the mid week long run. Dropped the tempo runs and did 3 x1 mile repeats with 3:00 rest. 3:37 on a easy course. I cold not hold pace on the tempo runs. Times would vary 20-30 second. < 4 seems doable in the right conditions. Very unscientific poll I took on RA. 40 % of respondents favored Pfitzinger for a BQ. It was 4 years ago so the % could be wrong.
Run until the trail runs out.
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The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff
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