Forums > Racing > Long Run pace
Is it better to start these runs slow and finish at marathon pace or do the marathon pace section in the middle or even mix it up a bit. Any input would be apprecaiated.
I don't think any of these options would be considered "wrong" by anyone. The first one lets you get used to race pace when you're tired, and will help you prepare for those final miles. The other two options give your mind (and body) a chance to "get out of the rut" and do something different, so they might make the run mentally easier to complete.
Given my relative lack of experience (only one marathon so far), augmented with reading the various running forums, I'd probably schedule at least one more fast-finish long run and use either (or both) of the other techniques for my remaining long runs. (Note, however, the disclaimer.)
mileage hound
If you were pretty comfortable, you were fine. There should not feel like there is a ton left in the tank at the end of a 21-miler. HOWEVER, you're saying you comfortably did about 21 miles at a pace only about 20sec/mile off your goal pace. This suggests that either a) you were working a lot harder than you thought you were, or b) you are in shape to run significantly faster than you think you are. With only a passing internet knowledge of you, only you can evaluate that. Typically how you felt during the run will tell you the answer.
Long run pace has nothing to do with "risking injury". Getting off the couch and running is risking injury. It is more about recovery time, if you are so tired you can barely run the next day or your pace is WAY off then you went too hard and are requiring too much recovery.
Long runs are a GREAT place to get marathon-specific training, like your ones with MP incorporated that you mention. DO NOT run recovery pace for the beginning of this. The whole purpose is to simulate running hard when you are tired at the end of a marathon and get used to what that will feel like. You will never do that if you sand-bag the first portion of the run to save yourself for the fast section. Run your normal long run pace, and crank it up at the end to get maximum benefit from the run.
2012 goals: Fastest race times since 2006.
Right on Hereford...
If you were pretty comfortable, you were fine. There should not feel like there is a ton left in the tank at the end of a 21-miler. HOWEVER, you're saying you comfortably did about 21 miles at a pace only about 20sec/mile off your goal pace. This suggests that either a) you were working a lot harder than you thought you were, or b) you are in shape to run significantly faster than you think you are. With only a passing internet knowledge of you, only you can evaluate that. Typically how you felt during the run will tell you the answer. Long run pace has nothing to do with "risking injury". Getting off the couch and running is risking injury. It is more about recovery time, if you are so tired you can barely run the next day or your pace is WAY off then you went too hard and are requiring too much recovery. Long runs are a GREAT place to get marathon-specific training, like your ones with MP incorporated that you mention. DO NOT run recovery pace for the beginning of this. The whole purpose is to simulate running hard when you are tired at the end of a marathon and get used to what that will feel like. You will never do that if you sand-bag the first portion of the run to save yourself for the fast section. Run your normal long run pace, and crank it up at the end to get maximum benefit from the run.
spaniel, great post, but I think you misunderstood his goal pace. He's aiming for a sub-3 marathon, so goal pace would be 6:52. He ran over 30 seconds per mile slower than that for about 21 miles.
Sounds just about right for a sub-3 marathoner long run pace, don't you think?
spaniel, great post, but I think you misunderstood his goal pace. He's aiming for a sub-3 marathon, so goal pace would be 6:52. He ran over 30 seconds per mile slower than that for about 21 miles. Sounds just about right for a sub-3 marathoner long run pace, don't you think?
You're right, math in my head is off.
So when I was in 5:40/mile marathon shape did I think 6:10/mile was a comfortable pace for a 20-miler? No....but I was probably running much higher mileage so I will defer on this one. While I'm used to people in the 4hr range running paces closer together because they lack the aerobic development to bring the race pace down, I was operating under the assumption that the 3-hr runner grouped closer with the faster people than the slower people. 3hrs calls out decent aerobic development to me.
You're right, math in my head is off. So when I was in 5:40/mile marathon shape did I think 6:10/mile was a comfortable pace for a 20-miler? No....but I was probably running much higher mileage so I will defer on this one. While I'm used to people in the 4hr range running paces closer together because they lack the aerobic development to bring the race pace down, I was operating under the assumption that the 3-hr runner grouped closer with the faster people than the slower people. 3hrs calls out decent aerobic development to me.
Yeah, I know what you mean. But I think the key was that it felt comfortable to him.
I think I'm in similar shape to the OP, and I just ran a 22 miler yesterday at 7:31 pace, with the last 11 at 7:20 pace. It felt pretty comfortable. This is pretty similar to the pace I ran my 22-miler last fall while training for Chicago, and I ran 2:58 there.
Anyway, from personal experience I don't think the OP is off the mark with those long runs, as long as recovery doesn't seem to be compromised, like you said, spaniel.
My avg long run pace is @ 8:00
but what is an average long run?
I would rather run 8:00 pace for 10 and then 4x2 mile @ 1/2 marathon or 10 mile pace with 1/2 mile recoveries instead of running Marathon pace +30 seconds the whole way. I am unsure what training benefit MP + 30 gives besides general strength - It seems a bit fast for LSD (Long slow distance) and a bit slow for any other trianing benefit.
It would just seem to make me tired without a lot of benefit
just my thoughts
Actual race day - After doing a lot of long runs @ 8:00 pace and a lot of speed work close to LAT (Lactic Acid threshhold) and a little sharpening @ Vo2 max - 6:24 pace was comfortable.
http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/
2012 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 1/2M < 1:25, 50k < 5 hours, 24 hour > 145 miles
My avg long run pace is @ 8:00 but what is an average long run? I would rather run 8:00 pace for 10 and then 4x2 mile @ 1/2 marathon or 10 mile pace with 1/2 mile recoveries instead of running Marathon pace +30 seconds the whole way. I am unsure what training benefit MP + 30 gives besides general strength - It seems a bit fast for LSD (Long slow distance) and a bit slow for any other trianing benefit. It would just seem to make me tired without a lot of benefit just my thoughts Actual race day - After doing a lot of long runs @ 8:00 pace and a lot of speed work close to LAT (Lactic Acid threshhold) and a little sharpening @ Vo2 max - 6:24 pace was comfortable.
Agreed. Once I have built up to being used to running a certain distance again, I quickly transition to adding some sort of quality into the run. At the very least I'll accelerate over the last 3-4 miles to MP or better to get maximum benefit from those last few miles.
In general I am not a fan of "LSD" outside limited base building periods. Unless you are running a ton or having difficulty recovering at a certain volume, there is typically a way to get more bang for the work you are putting in (assuming getting faster is your goal).
This makes sense but Im still a bit of a newbie. I think I need a couple of 20 milers under my belt before I start to stretch it.
"Race Across The Sky"
My avg long run pace is @ 8:00 but what is an average long run?
For you? About 40 miles.
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