123

Best HM workouts (Read 281 times)


Right on Hereford...

    And yet, you are way faster in races. Could it be that you train smarter?

     

    Holy crap, Cecil! I just took a look at your log. You are a machine! Your training paces would kill me fast.

      I can run with Cecil any day of the week, just not every day of the week.

       

      There is a lot of room for smarter in my training. That's for sure.

       

      And yet, you are way faster in races. Could it be that you train smarter?

       

        And yet, you are way faster in races. Could it be that you train smarter?

         

         

        I get that a lot when I spout off with my crazy ideas in online running forums. I totally understand that my training "style" does not work for everyone, and apparently even not for most people. I can only speak from my own experiences, based on what has worked the best for me.

         

        If my training, as effective as it is, is less than smart, so be it. My age-graded PR times are all above 80%, and my 10K times today are within a minute of what I was running 25 years ago, in my early 30's, when my training was really casual and ill-informed, based on my current knowledge. Could I train "better" today? I don't know; I feel like I'm giving 100% already. I only know one local runner in my age group who can run faster than me; he's a former college runner and still running sub-3 marathons at 56. He and I are totally different animals. He says he could not train like I do without getting injured, and if I trained like him, I'd probably still be struggling to break 20 minutes for a 5k. And I can easily outrun a serious local triathlete my age who used to be a 2:28 marathoner and 31:05 10K runner, "back in the day". I wasn't a runner back then, so we'll never know. But given the fact that I'll be 58 years old in a few weeks, I don't think I'm doing too badly. I'm in this sport to run and race as fast as I can, but like everyone else, I have to deal with reality; working full time, my dislike of winter weather, and the fact that I am getting older and presumably slower each year. Apparently I like to run hard and fast in training, but I never run any faster or further or harder than I feel like running. Also, I usually end up "time trialing" in local races because they're small and I run at a pace where I'm behind the fastest pack but ahead of the masses. So, it pays for me to practice time trialing.  I've run enough 13.12 mile time trials to know that it makes me measurably faster within one to two weeks, when I'm in early season outdoor training mode. Isn't that why we train, to get faster? 

         

        So, I stick by my suggestion, based a whole lot of personal experience, that running 13.12 mile TT's is one of, if not the best training workouts for a half marathon.  Your mileage and results may vary...

           

          I get that a lot when I spout off with my crazy ideas in online running forums. I totally understand that my training "style" does not work for everyone, and apparently even not for most people. I can only speak from my own experiences, based on what has worked the best for me.

           

          If my training, as effective as it is, is less than smart, so be it. My age-graded PR times are all above 80%, and my 10K times today are within a minute of what I was running 25 years ago, in my early 30's, when my training was really casual and ill-informed, based on my current knowledge. Could I train "better" today? I don't know; I feel like I'm giving 100% already. I only know one local runner in my age group who can run faster than me; he's a former college runner and still running sub-3 marathons at 56. He and I are totally different animals. He says he could not train like I do without getting injured, and if I trained like him, I'd probably still be struggling to break 20 minutes for a 5k. And I can easily outrun a serious local triathlete my age who used to be a 2:28 marathoner and 31:05 10K runner, "back in the day". I wasn't a runner back then, so we'll never know. But given the fact that I'll be 58 years old in a few weeks, I don't think I'm doing too badly. I'm in this sport to run and race as fast as I can, but like everyone else, I have to deal with reality; working full time, my dislike of winter weather, and the fact that I am getting older and presumably slower each year. Apparently I like to run hard and fast in training, but I never run any faster or further or harder than I feel like running. Also, I usually end up "time trialing" in local races because they're small and I run at a pace where I'm behind the fastest pack but ahead of the masses. So, it pays for me to practice time trialing.  I've run enough 13.12 mile time trials to know that it makes me measurably faster within one to two weeks, when I'm in early season outdoor training mode. Isn't that why we train, to get faster? 

           

          So, I stick by my suggestion, based a whole lot of personal experience, that running 13.12 mile TT's is one of, if not the best training workouts for a half marathon.  Your mileage and results may vary...

           

          I had looked at at your log and was surprised with what I saw, but I guess I ruminated on it a bit and thought that what you are doing makes some good sense, especially as an older runner. I'm not sure about HM time trials, but the general idea of maintaining good rhythm and relatively low miles -- making a lot of your running count and minimizing unproductive stresses -- is not the strangest idea in training.

           

          Do you have a background in another sport? When did you start running?

             

            I had looked at at your log and was surprised with what I saw, but I guess I ruminated on it a bit and thought that what you are doing makes some good sense, especially as an older runner. I'm not sure about HM time trials, but the general idea of maintaining good rhythm and relatively low miles -- making a lot of your running count and minimizing unproductive stresses -- is not the strangest idea in training.

             

            Do you have a background in another sport? When did you start running?

             

            Jeff, I've been a cyclist on and off for my whole life, always enjoyed long rides of a few hours or more, and raced for a couple of years in my mid-20's, but that's it.

             

            I don't cycle these days only because there simply aren't enough hours in the day and also I'm basically a 1-trick pony, and can only really focus on one thing at a time. And that one thing is running, at the moment. I first started running at age 28 or so, and ran "seriously" for 5 or 6 years but only for about 6 months out of each year, and probably 25-30 miles per week max. I didn't run in the winters, and I didn't run in the summer and fall when the temps were over 70's degrees, because that's biking weather. I gave up running for the most part and didn't do much cycling either in the early '90's after moving to my current location and getting a new job, and getting involved in other things. Life got in the way for a few years,  and eventually my stomach started getting in the way as well, as I piled on 40 lbs over my current weight...  I restarted my running life 6 years ago, stopped running last summer for 4 months, then re-started running this past October. 

             

            I'm off to the indoor track for some slow easy running now... 


            Right on Hereford...

               

              I had looked at at your log and was surprised with what I saw, but I guess I ruminated on it a bit and thought that what you are doing makes some good sense, especially as an older runner. I'm not sure about HM time trials, but the general idea of maintaining good rhythm and relatively low miles -- making a lot of your running count and minimizing unproductive stresses -- is not the strangest idea in training.

               

              I think Cecil's training is extremely interesting. Here we have a really fast guy, regardless of age. But when you look at his age (57), he is extremely fast.

               

              And then take a look at his training. Here's a sample:

               

              12/7: 10k in 40:31 (6:32 pace, which is faster than his HM PR pace)

              12/8: 13.17 miles in 1:28:00 (adjusted, that's like a 1:27:34 HM, just 1:34 off his HM PR)

              12/9: 10 miles at 7:34 pace

              12/10: 5k in 19:45 (just over a minute slower than his 5k PR),

              followed by 5.5 miles at around HM PR pace

              12/11: 6.6 miles at 6:13 pace (only 7 seconds off his 10k PR pace)

              12/12: 7 miles at 6:55 pace

              12/13: 5.2 miles at 6:37 pace (3 seconds off his HM PR pace)

               

              So, that's 57 miles for the week. Of that, 40 miles (70%) were around Half Marathon PR pace or faster. About 10 of those miles (17% of total) were around 10k PR pace or faster.

               

              This is highly unusual training, to say the least. Cecil says it "works for him," and as evidence, he is comparing himself to a) his younger self (he's still within a minute of his all-time 10k PR), and b) everyone else his age (his age graded scores are 80% or better). That seems like compelling evidence, but...a) what if his training methods were crap in his younger days (and he's already said as much), and b) what if his true potential is 95% on the age grade scale?

               

              If this is a good way to train, why are his PR's just barely faster than his everyday training paces?

               

              My opinion: this guy could be winning USATF Masters Nationals if he trained properly.

              Better I Leave


                Ya know, I train people too....just not on running 'cuz I don't know anything about other than..."run". I train people on gaining muscle and/or losing fat. I've been doing it off and on for decades and one thing I've learned is that there is no "cookie cutter" template for everyone. As a trainer, before I even construct a program, I look at their blood stats, their height/weight/heart rates, goals, physical weaknesses/strengths...things like that. Just throwing in my .02

                 

                What works for one person doesn't work for another. We all have to find our own "place". When it comes to running...I just run. But then again, I don't have any intention of ever entering the Boston Marathon. A sub 2 hour HM will suffice and I will meet that goal. After that...we'll see. Smile

                  If this is a good way to train, why are his PR's just barely faster than his everyday training paces?

                   

                  My opinion: this guy could be winning USATF Masters Nationals if he trained properly.

                   

                  Dakota, serious question: why do you care so much? Cecil hasn't asked anybody for help. He isn't wringing his hands in search of an answer for why his race times aren't faster relative to his training paces, and he seems to be getting what he wants out of the sport of running right now. So what difference does it make to you if he trains to his potential?

                   

                  This sort of reminds me of a guy I (and a lot of other NE runners) know up here. He had been a high school all-scholastic and a good college runner but had burned out and stopped running for most of his 20's. Then in his late 20's or so he started running again and racing A LOT. Like twice a week a lot. He didn't do any real workouts, just ran mileage during the week and ran races all the time. He made steady improvements and became one of the better club runners in New England. At one point he was getting a lot of criticism for racing too much and never really training properly to peak for any one race and basically wasting his potential. He wrote this really good blog post in response, saying that in his mind he had "peaked" 10 years ago in college and so--since this was all just for fun anyway--he was only going to do the kind of running and racing that he liked to do. To him that meant running a ton of races including a lot of mountain races in the summer and snow shoe races in the winter and if it meant he never really raced up to his full potential he was perfectly fine with that.

                   

                  None of us in this thread is making it to the Olympic 5000m final. We each have our own reasons for running and our own daemons to chase down. To each his own, I say.

                  Runners run.

                    None of us in this thread is making it to the Olympic 5000m final. 

                     

                    Man, you just crushed my dreams right there.


                    Prince of Fatness

                      daemons

                       

                      I had a feeling that you were a Unix guy.

                      Semi-retired.

                        ps aux | grep *daemon*

                         

                        Hrm.  Doesn't return anything on RA.  Better do the chasing elsewhere.

                         

                         

                        I had a feeling that you were a Unix guy.

                        "When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." 
                        Emil Zatopek


                        Right on Hereford...

                          Dakota, serious question: why do you care so much? Cecil hasn't asked anybody for help.

                           

                          No, you're right. But he did give some training advice that I disagreed with, which prompted me to respond in the first place.

                           

                          I think it's clear that Cecil likes to run fast, but I think he can run much faster. I make my training log public so that people can critique it.

                            Cecil's PRs don't show signs of aerobic weakness -- he'd probably have a hard time putting together a marathon on this type of training, but that doesn't seem to be his goal.

                             

                            For an older guy with a 30+ year background in aerobic sports, I am not sure that spending a lot of time on low-end aerobic development is really all that crucial.


                            Right on Hereford...

                              Cecil's PRs don't show signs of aerobic weakness -- he'd probably have a hard time putting together a marathon on this type of training, but that doesn't seem to be his goal.

                               

                              For an older guy with a 30+ year background in aerobic sports, I am not sure that spending a lot of time on low-end aerobic development is really all that crucial.

                               

                              I disagree about aerobic weakness at longer distances. His 10k is a far better performance than his half marathon PR, and his 25k drops off even further.

                               

                              And maybe low-end aerobic development isn't so critical in his situation, but how about recovery?

                               

                              Jeff, under what circumstances would you recommend that someone run about 70% of their miles at HM pace or faster?

                                 

                                I disagree about aerobic weakness at longer distances. His 10k is a far better performance than his half marathon PR, and his 25k drops off even further.

                                 

                                And maybe low-end aerobic development isn't so critical in his situation, but how about recovery?

                                 

                                Jeff, under what circumstances would you recommend that someone run about 70% of their miles at HM pace or faster?

                                 

                                Well, his 10k is also better than his 5k... Seems to me he hit it 'square' in that 10k. Every kind of training has its relative merits.

                                 

                                He's got recovery runs. And he is good about taking days off.

                                 

                                I guess I'd recommend it for a guy like Cecil. He's light (133 lbs), quick to recover, seems to be running fine, relatively injury free and maybe most importantly he's enjoying what he's doing and he believes in it.

                                 

                                I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, but I really wouldn't recommend the standard message board line of "slow down and jog a lot" for everyone either. Cecil certainly represents an extreme of training, but his training is no more extreme than, say, Dopplebock's.

                                123