Goal of Sub-3 Hour Marathon (Read 15825 times)

    I need help. Fixin' to start implementing M training. Been looking at mikey's workouts and I like 'em. But I don't believe I can do intensity when I run long. For me, I can only do long runs easy, cause they're hard enough on their own. So here's my question. 1) I want to get in a workout at interval pace. 2) I want to run tempo. (but is this at pace derived from current 5k or other, that' a ? in it's self) 3) I want to run MP ( 6:50) So, how do I fit all this into my week? What I'm thinking so far is this: Which week fit's IYO, considering I'm 43 and running my ass off at work? Week type 1 - M-easy, T-easy, W-mid-long (w/ intervals, hills or tempo), T-easy, F-rest, S-MP,etc.., S-long Week type 2 - M-easy, T-hills, tempo, or intervals, W-easy, T-tempo,pace, F-rest, S-MP, S-long Please help, I need your input.

    Ricky

    —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka


    Ham & Egger

      On another note, I am so confused. Been looking at mikey's workouts and I like 'em. But I don't believe I can do intensity when I run long. To me, I can only do long runs easy, cause it's hard enough on it's own. So here's my question. 1) I want to get in a workout at interval pace. 2) I want to run tempo. (but is this at pace derived from current 5k or other, that' a ? in it's self) 3) I want to run MP ( 6:50) So, how do I fit all this into my week? What I'm thinking so far is this: Which week fit's IYO, considering I'm 43 and running my ass off at work? Week type 1 - M-easy, T-easy, W-mid-long (w/ intervals, hills or tempo), T-easy, F-rest, S-MP,etc.., S-long Week type 2 - M-easy, T-hills, tempo, or intervals, W-easy, T-tempo,pace, F-rest, S-MP, S-long Please help, I need your input.
      Mike, Obsessor, Spaniel, Jim have much better pedigrees than me, but here's my two cents, for better, for worse. If you're running 30-40 miles a week, and hoping to break 3, I think that 2 workouts a week is mondo plenty. One should work VO2 max, the other should work tempo. Now, you may not be prepared to do tempo work on your long, and maybe you are...Jim or Mike can better speak to this. So, that said, I typically try to keep the same kind of schedule and focus on goal, over, and under. I typically run the paces @ current fitness--not goal--had a coach who tried that last year and it left me flat for races. But that's just me... So, if it were me, Here's how I'd work it: Week 1: M: EZ T: Longer Intervals at 10k Pace W: EZ mid week long run R Rest or recovery F: Long slow tempo work--Straight MP, or MP mixed w/ slower intervals, capped at an hour SA: EZ SU: Long Week 2: M: EZ T: Shorter Intervals at 5k pace WL EZ mid week longer run R: Rest or Rec. F: Faster tempo work: LT intervals, straight 30:00-40' @ HMP, or a mix of MP & HMP SA: EZ SU: Long Rinse and repeat. For me, I take every 4th week as recovery, 80% of max. Occassionally replace F workout for SA race, especially on the down week. Of course, I'm training for a marathon for the first time, but by and large, my best race season came from this kind of schedule...and making the VO2 recoveries shorter (or keeping the recoveries the same and making the intervals longer) every month or so until I was race sharp. Again, others may have a different opinion, others who much better than me Wink
      www.tuscaloosarunner.blogspot.com
        There's a lot to chew on here. Here are some thoughts: Long runs. If long runs are hard, then maybe consider doing really long runs (17+ miles) every other week. Maybe then you'd feel more comfortable including some marathon pace running in the long run. Another reason your long runs are hard is because you may be doing too much quality in the middle of the week. A long run is going to be hard if you're doing MP stuff the day before. Tempos. MP running is "tempo" running. So, I think you can collapse #'s 2 and 3. You might do some longer tempos at MP or some shorter ones at HM. Probably what would be best is starting at MP and progressing down to HM or 10k if feeling great. That should take care of tempo work. Intervals. Sounds like you're talking about Daniels' I-pace stuff. This is very hard work that you should be careful how much you integrate into your training. I'd go with every other week for this work. Schedule: to me, it looks too packed with quality to get the attention to quantity that you'll need. My recommendation for you would be to focus on one "tempo" or "interval" workout every week. Maybe alternating a tempo workout with something like 1000's. Keep the rest of the mileage easy. On the weeks that you don't have a long run, you could work on dialing in your marathon pace: maybe a 8-10 miles at MP. On the weeks of your long run, do it long, but throw in a little bit of faster running in there. So I'd say something like; M - easy T - easy W - alternate intervals or tempo Th - easy F - easy or moderate S - easy Su - long or MP or a combination
          Mike, Obsessor, Spaniel, Jim? Jeff? So, if it were me, Here's how I'd work it:
          Thanks for your input. It's appreciated and being considered. 1) About me: I've been in a slump of sorts, so I cut the mileage and intensity in hopes of bouncing back. I'm fixin to ramp back up in short order as I've got 15 weeks to Dec. 13th marathon, if it's gonna work? Most likely my miles per week will return this month to 45-55+ and upwards to 65+ later. Another thing, I run approx. 12 miles per 8 hour day(60mpw) at work doing my job, so I have an aerobic base of sorts. 2) I'm at most a 5-10 k'er wanting to lower.. those times over all else. So when I do repeats or intervals, I base them off my current ability at 5k. You suggest long intervals at 10k pace(6:20-25) and short ones at 5k(5:5x). I've followed Daniels paces in that I will run them (long or short) at or below 5k pace. Now if I were to run cruise intervals/tempo, they would be at my current 10k ability according to JD pace and "feel"/comfy hard. For the most part, I like your example weeks. I only wonder what others think about my situation as well. Keep 'em coming. *#1 question in my mind is this: I can run 6:50 pace comfortably. What do you do/work to sustain "?" pace for the M distance?

          Ricky

          —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka

            Thanks for posting Jeff. My mind is at ease since I read what you said about the tempo paces, and intervals. I see you just modified, and I'd like to say, what I like to do on my long runs that does feel right when I'm recovered, is to run the last "fourth" comfortably hard. So maybe I should run some of 'em very easy for say 15 miles and the last 5 at MP? or HMP? or not so fast, but just pick it up a bit from easy, between there and MP? Could you or someone touch on the question I last asked about, what makes one able to sustain "X pace"(6:50) for the longer haul?

            Ricky

            —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka

              I see you just modified, and I'd like to say, what I like to do on my long runs that does feel right when I'm recovered, is to run the last "fourth" comfortably hard. So maybe I should run some of 'em very easy for say 15 miles and the last 5 at MP? or HMP? or not so fast, but just pick it up a bit from easy, between there and MP?
              Yes, this is what I do; usually trying to hit goal MP over the last few miles, no faster and no slower.
              Could you or someone touch on the question I last asked about, what makes one able to sustain "X pace"(6:50) for the longer haul?
              I'm not an extremely experienced marathoner, but I do think that it's the consistent mileage that gives you the strength to do it, more than anything else. I think you'd be well served really concentrating on moving the mileage to 70 or so and doing only so much quality as allows you to get there healthy.
                Points taken and I feel assured at best. Thanks Jeff. I'm out to run. Peace bro and heal up! Still would like a response from Jim or spaniel, mikey, etc to back Jeff up.

                Ricky

                —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka

                  pRED, I settled on doing all my workouts during my two longest runs of the week because I found that easier than trying to fit in 2 workouts and a long run. Having basically 5 easy days a week makes it relatively easy to handle all the mileage I have time for and lets me do some really hard workouts. I agree with Jeff that it's about finding a schedule you can sustain long term, versus trying to fit in as much quality as you can. The schedule Jeff drew is pretty much what I do, week in and week out. Except all the intervals I do are pretty much of the cruise variety unless I'm in the last few weeks of getting ready to race goal 5k-10k's, which lately has been never. Maybe next year. It's not very imaginative, but it works. And I can maintain the mileage I need to race prety well at all distances on that. You could take that schedule and alternate weeks doing I pace intervals one week with cruise or tempo the next week. On Sunday do fast finish long runs, progression runs, long tempos--those ware what get you ready to sustain MP over long distances. Voila. It's hard for me to account for all the running you're doing at work without living a week in your shoes and knowing what that's really like. It sounds like it is helping you maintain fitness but is not really recovery mileage. I still think a schedule with more easy day and fewer but longer hard days will be the best way to go.

                  Runners run.

                    Mike, Obsessor, Spaniel, Jim have much better pedigrees than me ....
                    obsessor, spaniel and Jim maybe but not me. I think you and I are pretty close to the same level and experience... And I agree that it's best to work at current fitness, not goal.

                    Runners run.

                      I think two quality workouts a week for marathon training is enough. You have your long workout which can either be a long easy run, long run with marathon pace thrown in or a long run with some tempo intervals. Then you have your other quality run for the weeks, which could be VO2Max intervals, tempo intervals, and extended tempo run etc. The rest of the week you fill in with either recovery, easy or general aerobic runs. Sometimes adding a midweek easy long run is good (11-15 miles), though I have been guilty of not doing that lately... The only way I think getting comfortable to running 6:51's for 20+ miles is to just run a lot of miles a week. A marathon is all aerobic, so the more miles usually the better.....
                        pRED, I still think a schedule with more easy day and fewer but longer hard days will be the best way to go.
                        That's exactly what appeals to me about your weeks. Trying my best to convince myself to allow myself more at easy. I like how I'm currently feeling doing nothing but easy. Thanks for the input. Mikey, what pace do you do cruise and/ or tempo at? Faster than MP? (6:50 for me) mta: The more I hear/talk about this stuff, I'm gaining mental strength, and it's even translating to the physical!

                        Ricky

                        —our ability to perform up to our physiological potential in a race is determined by whether or not we truly psychologically believe that what we are attempting is realistic. Anton Krupicka

                          pRED, I think we have similar strengths and weaknesses when it comes to our approach to training. Don't be afraid to run some stuff at over 8 minutes per mile. Seriously. Especially if you are coming out of a slump. My first go-round, I literally wouldn't let myself over 7 minute pace and ended up worn out and mentally drained (sound familiar?). Next time around, I'm going to make myself run 7:30's or so a couple times a week: to give myself energy and strength when it counts. During this build-up period, teach yourself to run slow. Make it your discipline. Keep us informed on how it's going!
                          obsessor


                            ...If you're running 30-40 miles a week, and hoping to break 3, ...
                            hoping. Ugh, that sounds like torture.
                              obsessor, spaniel and Jim maybe but not me. I think you and I are pretty close to the same level and experience... And I agree that it's best to work at current fitness, not goal.
                              I appreciate being included in same company with those guys but have never come near the race times or training level that they have. I'm pretty good for an old guy but that's about as far as it goes. I've probably learned more about training the past 3 or years than all the rest combined. Agree on working at current fitness rather than goal.
                              Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
                                Mikey, what pace do you do cruise and/ or tempo at? Faster than MP? (6:50 for me)
                                For me, cruise intervals are ~ between 10k pace and HMP depending on volume. So like 5:45 pace to 6:05 maybe. Tempos are between HMP and MP, so 6:05 to 6:30 but I don't really do any "short tempos" like the 20 minute Daniels tempo. I pretty much don't do tempos shorter than 4 miles unless I'm doing multiples or as part of a bigger workout. I also don't stress too much about hitting the pace exactly on every workout. Some days you're the bug and some days you're the windshield. I just go by effort. It's doing the workout that matters, not doing it at an exact pace. mta: for example, I just noticed that I did the same workout today that I did on August 13th, three weeks ago. Look how different my pace was today versus then. It's nice that I did it faster today and can tell myself it's progress, but really it's probably just the difference between a good day and a not so good day. This is the same workout on the same course (doing 3.2 mile laps around a lake where it's pretty flat, using my garmin to mark off 1000 meter reps and 2 minute recoveries). Date: 8/13/2008 5:45 AM Total: 13.2 miles , 1:37:03 , 7:22 mile Notes: 3+ mile easy with 2 x 20 sec strides, 6 x 1000m / 2 min jog, (3:47, 3:55, 3:54, 3:43, 3:43, 3:45) = 3:47 avg. , 6:06 pace 1.4 mile easy, 3 x 30 seconds @ 3k pace / 1 min jog, 3 mile jog home. Sluggish today...tired. Date: 9/3/2008 5:30 AM Total: 13.2 miles , 1:33:11 , 7:04 / mile Notes: 3.2 miles easy with 2 x strides, 6 x 1000m / 2 min recovery jogs, (3:38, 3:40, 3:42, 3:37, 3:31, 3:35) = 3:37 avg. , 5:50 pace 1.3 miles easy, 3 x 30 seconds @ 5 pace / 1 min jogs, 3 miles easy "not a jog". Felt good today

                                Runners run.