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How much is enought for sub 18:30? (Read 2514 times)

dallasboycows


    Isn't the MAF test a Phil Maffetone thing? He was training Ironman triathletes and marathoners, not 5K runners, right? 

     

    actually if you look at the MAF test they usually run 5 miles for the test not a marathon or triathlon but yes that is what he was training and the main purpose was to increase aerobic ability.  I was just simply saying that if you look at some of his test individuals, they got down to where they could run 5 miles with fat as maybe not the main but as a supplementary source of fuel.  

     

    And really i know I said anaerobic in lots of my arguements, but I was just saying it isn't necessary to run 5 minutes a mile every single mile you run to get aerobic changes and in fact can lead to injury in many cases.  Although and I'm not sure I have read that anaerobic/high intensity aerobic training can lead to some extra aerobic cellular improvement once base training is maxed.


    Feeling the growl again

       I agree.  I'm just saying I haven't met too many high school and above individuals who can run a low 5 that can't run a 18:30.  They usually run in the low to mid 17's just from what I've experienced from males.

       

      I'd agree that and HS kid running low-5 in the 1600 should run sub-18:30....the quote you are responding to was directed to MrH, who was responding to Alec.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

      coach-T


        I would recommend to anyone, ESPECIALLY someone who is not even 20 yet, to stop thinking in terms of setting time goals and start thinking about setting the goal of continuously improving.  It is ok to set a time goal for a race or something, but once you set a long term time goal you create mental barriers for yourself that create physical limits.  And, as Nobby indicates, it becomes a game of "just enough" rather than "do what I have to do to keep improving".

         

        I ran in junior high...2-mile, nothing spectacular, 17:30ish in 7th grade and 12:57 in 8th grade.  First two years of HS not great either, 20:30ish and 19:37.

         

        Then I decided I wanted to improve.  So over the summer I just worked out as much as I could.  It wasn't even all running; a ton of it was biking.  I'd just get on my bike and head into the wind, and when I got tired I'd turn around and go home.  All I cared about was improving, I had no time goal in my head.

         

        Near the end of the summer a funny thing happened.  We did an informal team training run, I ran around town with the guy who had been our #4 runner the prior year.  Toward the end of the run he told me I had to slow down, I was killing him.  Now, this was a guy who I had never been within 90sec of in a race the prior year.  A few weeks later we had our first meet and I ran almost 18 flat I think, 2nd on the team and made our top runner work for it...and by the end of the year I was 17:20ish and beat him too.

         

        Senior year I fixated on that 17:00 barrier.  That's all I thought about and what I tried to pace my races around.  I failed and ran 17:01 as my best.  My first two years in college were the same way, I fixated on that barrier and never got it.

         

        Then the winter before my junior track season I decided just to work my tail off again and see what happened.  I cross country skied hard with all my free time (too much snow to run much).  Season came around and I ended up knocking 2 minutes off my 10K and 45sec off my 5K.

         

        I had learned my lesson by then and post-college just focused on improving.  I kept running more and more and PRs got faster and faster.  At any point outside of that one year where I ran all my PRs if you'd told me where they would end up, I would have laughed at you and not believed. 

         

        If you limit yourself to what you can see on your side of the horizon, you're unlikely to reach over it and see what is really there.

         

        Again, people are different; when I run without a goal I see 21, or 22 results. With 20 minutes in my sights, 3 weeks of training with that in my mind, I ran a 19:39. I get your different, but understand that others are too. A goal can be big for you, especially if you run smart in your 5k. I think about each mile individually and really go for it. 5:50, 6:50, and 6:00. I slowed down on the second mile knowing hills were coming and I was in the lead on a very small 5k; either way I lost it in the end and got second, but 19:39 made me happy as I knew I ran smart, planned to break 20, and made sure I had enough left in my to not die that last mile after I started a bit fast.

        What I don't think a lot of people understand is running is more mental than we think. Running smart is important, and thinking during the race is what works for me.

        coach-T


          Yeah ... for the high schoolers the kids running sub 16:30 are also running around 4:30.  Adults with more years running might have more aerobic endurance and less miler speed, but nothing like 16:30/5:15.

           

          I ran a 4:44 in high school right before I ran a 17:47; I would say that is correct; I ran a 18:57 last year and would be surprised to break 5:30 in a mile, and I am only coming close to 30.

          coach-T


            BTW I am in on the sub 18:30 by Thanksgiving, just ran 19:39 as I was saying and I have only began to get fast for the year! (really well will see) I hope that you make your goal as well crackerjacker. Eat right, focus on your running, rest, take your extra mileage in the morning rather than after practice (two or three miles is fine) take time off when you need it; beat that guy your aiming for!

            BHoutchens


            The Super Nerd!

              idk if anyone has given you a solid answer yet, but im right were you are on this. my PR is an 18:27. if your looking for a pace that would be a 6:10 pace. as for milage, well, my coach ups our milage every week, but after three weeks, he has whats called a recovery week, where he takes 10 miles off the total milage for the week, then the next week you just get back on the regular schedule, i cant say for sure, but i believe that my coach is having us run about 42 miles per week, but as some ppl have stated before, running is different for every person. the one thing i can tell you though, is that it all mental, you really have to want that PR and go after it mentally, during practice, and especially during the race. Also, take your easy days easy, and your hard days hard. many runners have problems taking their easy days too hard. if you end up doing that, then your body doesnt have enough time to recover, and you wont be getting better.

              Brandon Houtchens


              HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                ... my PR is an 18:27. if your looking for a pace that would be a 6:10 pace. ...

                 

                I don't understand what you mean by this.

                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                  I don't understand what you mean by this.

                   

                  He's in high school and racing 3 miles, not 5k.


                  HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                    He's in high school and racing 3 miles, not 5k.

                     

                    Oh. I see.  (Our high schools race 5Ks mostly.)

                    It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                      Yeah, same here, now. When I raced back in the day though it was 3 miles in XC. But of course we ran the 1600m in track. Who says high school has to make sense.


                      Feeling the growl again

                        Again, people are different; when I run without a goal I see 21, or 22 results. With 20 minutes in my sights, 3 weeks of training with that in my mind, I ran a 19:39. I get your different, but understand that others are too. A goal can be big for you, especially if you run smart in your 5k. I think about each mile individually and really go for it. 5:50, 6:50, and 6:00. I slowed down on the second mile knowing hills were coming and I was in the lead on a very small 5k; either way I lost it in the end and got second, but 19:39 made me happy as I knew I ran smart, planned to break 20, and made sure I had enough left in my to not die that last mile after I started a bit fast.

                        What I don't think a lot of people understand is running is more mental than we think. Running smart is important, and thinking during the race is what works for me.

                         

                        I've been around the block so to speak, I think I understand that people are different.  And I think you misunderstand this 2.5 month old post.

                         

                        Setting a goal in a race is fine.  Gearing all of your training around a goal can lead to trouble.  It distracts you from the real goal...improving as much as you can with the time/miles you have to work with...by anchoring you to some arbitrary time goal.  Of course, when you get into a target race, you are going to have some pace...and therefore time....in mind and that's fine.

                         

                        Running may be more mental than we think, but you can want and wish all you can, and you won't get there if you haven't done the training to back it up.  The mental side cannot take you 1 second further than what your conditioning supports, it can only hold you back from racing to your current full ability.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         

                          Running may be more mental than we think, but you can want and wish all you can, and you won't get there if you haven't done the training to back it up.  The mental side cannot take you 1 second further than what your conditioning supports, it can only hold you back from racing to your current full ability.

                           

                          I almost responded to this thread with the almost identical point of view that spaniel expresses here, and I will add, with no disrespect at all intended to our younger runners:  Now that my son is in high school and I am around high school cross country runners again for the first time in 30 years I think the young bucks really have no idea yet how to hit their limits with any kind of consistency simply because they just don't have the running and racing experience needed to do so.  For this reason I think it feels to them more "mental" and "magical" than physical.  I wish I could remember which Kenyan runner said, "The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare." 

                          - Joe

                          We are fragile creatures on collision with our judgment day.

                             I wish I could remember which Kenyan runner said, "The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare." 

                             

                            Juma Ikangaa was actually a Tanzanian.

                             

                             

                            MTA:  spaniel is wise, and his post is spot on

                             

                            E.J.
                            Greater Lowell Road Runners
                            Cry havoc and let slip the dawgs of war!

                            May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back, may the sun shine warm upon your SPF30, may the rains fall soft upon your sweat-wicking hat, and until you hit the finish line may The Flying Spaghetti Monster hold you in the hollow of His Noodly Appendage.

                              "The will to win is nothing without the will to prepare." 

                               

                              I like that. Had to look it up. Turns out it was Juma Ikangaa

                               

                              MTA. Looks like I got beat by BD.

                                Looks like I got beat by BD.

                                 

                                Hey I know the feeling.

                                Runners run.

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