Forums >Running 101>Running wizard suggested marathon race pace and leg fatigue
Hi,
I have registered for the FM training plan, however there is one thing that I don't understand. The longest run on the plan is about 25km at pace of 6:20min/km. Even the fastest workout there is done at around 5:34 min/km. The suggested marathon pace is 5:48. I am not sure how I can run a full marathon at that pace when I never train for any moderate distance run at a pace even remotely close to that.
Another question that I have is related to my own experience. During the last marathon, I felt that my legs were tired/fatigue while my HR and breathing were still okay(around 32km). I am not sure what to do to fix this uneven condition. Should I try some leg strength training? Some people say that I should run more, but if I never run that far during my workout, how can I get my legs conditioned for such distance?
Thanks for the input!
an amazing likeness
Don't have any advice your question, but thought I'd let you know there is a Running Wizard group here on RunningAHEAD which may be a good forum for your specific questions on your RW plan: link
Acceptable at a dance, invaluable in a shipwreck.
I'm not familiar with the particular plan you mention, so my comments will be general.
A marathon training plan with a sub-marathon max distance is fine if the plan is built to simulate the latter part of the marathon by tiring you out with the workouts on the days prior to the long run. Especially so if this occurs after a couple heavy weeks of training. Look at the structure of the Hal Higdon Intermediate plans; at the peak you run a 20 mile long run the day after a 10 mile "pace" run for a total of 50 miles that week. Contrast to race day where you've tapered for 2-3 weeks and your body is well rested and refreshed having run a mere ten miles the week leading up to the race.
Regarding the paces you mention; I'd anticipate some speed work in the plan (5K pace intervals) and I'd especially expect some mid-distance runs at the target race pace. Ideally right before the longest runs of the week.
Remember that the adrenaline rush of race day coupled with being well rested from your taper will definitely kick your paces up a notch relative to training. This is part of why it's so easy to make the mistake of going out too fast - you feel so much better than you did during training...
Your leg fatigue at 32km wouldn't be surprising. Marathons are supposed to be tiring after all. What was your typical and maximum weekly mileage (or "kilometerage"? ) on your previous marathon training and on the current plan? Also what was your nutrition / hydration plan during the previous marathon? Strength training is fine, and I think I answered the question about conditioning/distance above.
As always, free advice on the Internet is worth every penny you paid for it; I recommend you use my comments as guidelines for your own research into training methods and reasons. Hal Higdon has a lot of great explanatory material online and I tend to go with his training plans as the foundation for my own training. (I tweak/modify to fit my particular preferences)
+1. Yes, there is quite a bit of advice from fellow users of the Running Wizard plans in the forums at that link. Thanks for posting, milktruck.
The question about the longest Long Run being seemingly too short is a common one after people start these plans. My longest run in my RW marathon plan a year ago was about 17 miles (a bit longer than the 25 km that Blah79 mentioned). I ended up running a marathon PR (beating an old PR that stood for 19 years), and felt well prepared for the race. For comparison, I believe the Hanson's (or Hansons'?) Marathon plan advocates a max Long Run of about 16 miles, and I've heard very good things from people who have used that plan. So the 25km Long Run does not, by itself, seem like a problem to me.
I think the biggest difference I noticed in comparing RW to other plans I have tried was the higher volume of mid-week runs. I also think the plan generates a Long Run distance and pace trying to stay within certain guidelines (e.g., Long Run equals no more than ~25-30% of total weekly mileage, or some such).
Good luck!
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Running long runs at less than marathon distance is very common, right? and doing them at easy pace, slower than goal marathon pace, is pretty common in plans, especially those in more beginner-oriented training plans, isn't it?
Doing much of the long run actually as fast as the goal marathon pace can be a pretty hard workout, I think (depending how much is at the fast pace).
Last week I did 7 easy followed by 7 at near goal marathon pace, and felt that it was a good workout.
It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.
Feeling the growl again
A marathon is run tapered and rested.
A long run in training is not.
In the midst of a full training load, doing 13-16 miles at MP would be one hell of a workout. I can tell you the one time I did 16 miles at MP it was a mistake and too hard of a workout.
The goal of good training is to give you all the pieces to put together on race day. It is not to emulate the race in larger and larger percentages. Don't confuse the two.
If you perform the training correctly, you will have this magical experience on race day where it all comes together. Early in my racing career it was not unusual for me to come through the half point in a marathon very close to a HM PR I ran, untapered, during the training phase.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
25km seems short for a longest run in marathon training but then I have to guess that this is because the weekly mileage of the plan is pretty low. If your weekly mileage is relatively low you will likely not be able to absorb/recover from runs much longer than that and so it makes sense.
This similar to the concept of the Hansons plans that have a longest run of 16 miles. A common misconceptions of the Hansons method is that they are advocates of capping the long run at 16 miles--this is not the case. Many of the Hansons runners routinely do runs of 22, 24 miles in training but that is because they are running over 100 miles a week. Luke Humphrey, the author of the book, actually coaches some runners who log their runs here on RA and you will see these people doing 20+ mile long runs in marathon training because they have the overall mileage base to support it. What the books do--because they are written for novice/intermediate runners--is they acknowledge the reality that most work-a-day hobbyjoggers are only going to run about 60 miles a week in training and so a longest run of about 16 miles fits better with the overall training plan and provides the right balance of stimulus and recovery. That aspect gets a lot of play on message boards and probably helps sell the book because lets face it a lot of people don't like doing long runs. But the fact is the marathon is a 26.2 mile race and the more mileage you are running (both weekly and in terms of longest run) the better you will do, assuming you can recover from it.
Runners run
25km seems short for a longest run in marathon training but then I have to guess that this is because the weekly mileage of the plan is pretty low. If your weekly mileage is relatively low you will likely not be able to absorb/recover from runs much longer than that and so it makes sense. ...
Running Wizard caps the long runs at 2.5 hrs, so the slower runners may have a really short long run. They have a model they follow, which I think probably works well for people in the mainstream, but gives, what I consider, somewhat quirky results for others, like older women running hilly races. I believe they also spend about half the weeks on base / endurance, then divide the others into the Lydiard phases. So even if you might do better with running more, the last half is running less but more intensely. This makes sense for their model, but may not be the best for all.
(I started with a 10k pgm, for speed work underlying an ultra, a couple years ago, but only did the base part because his hill work did not agree with the snow on the ground and the snow coming down. Last year I did a heavily modified marathon pgm to incorporate more volume, longer long runs, more hills. The plan called for a longest long run of 8.5mi in 2.5hrs and max volume was around 7.5hrs. I had just finished an 11 mi race before starting the pgm.)
Thanks for the great input everyone. I guess I kinda get the point now. Also thanks for referring me to the RW group. Will definitely check it out!
Cheers.