How hard is it to know if an elite athlete is a woman? (Read 2187 times)

    The issues raised here are worth some thought, I think. A small aside- don't confuse your tranvestites with your transexuals. ( Of course drag queens are something else entirely.)


    Just a regular girl

      Yep, this is me.

       

       

       MMMMMmmm, needs a big dollop of butter!

        The issues raised here are worth some thought, I think. A small aside- don't confuse your tranvestites with your transexuals. ( Of course your drag queens are something else entirely.)

         

         

        Award time!

         


        straw man

           

          I do agree with the idea that we do not question our gender. Even if they did find a set of testies in the South African athlete what would it mean?  Seriously, there is an athlete out there that still has a WR after her death, even though she was found to be intersex. If that can happen, how can you take a medal away from someone with a similar condition? If you start browsing articles about gender testing, you will find that in 1996 (the last Olympiad that required women to gender test) 5-7 intersexed athletes were allowed to compete as women (this was from 3 different articles I found in a quick search, 2 said 7 and 1 said 5).  So if it is fine for the intersexed to compete, why then is it not fine for them to win? Do you let those that have had gender reassignment surgery win, but the others cannot?  To compete at this level, you need to put in a ton of work.  I just don't think the athletes in question ever believed that all that work would be for naught once they were successful. 

          The line has to be drawn somewhere. You can just say, "It's too hard to figure out where to draw the line, so let's not." I don't think that's acceptable.

          It's not about whether those with ambiguous gender should be allowed to compete. It's about whether all of them should be allowed to compete against women. I happen to think the line has to be drawn somewhere.

          If they're not women, they should not be allowed to compete against women.

          Why shouldn't they compete against men? Why should they default to the easier category? How is that fair?

           

          Is all my training for naught because I'm not going to win Olympic gold? I think not. I'm not that good, but it's worth it for me.

          If another man, or almost man, is a far better athlete than I am, but not good enough to be world champion, unless he poses as a woman, should I feel sorry for him? Is all his training for naught?

          I don't think so.

          He who has the best time wins. Jerry

            See I think it's just words like "poses" that get some people riled up.  Caster Semenya didn't pose as anything.  She was born and raised a girl and has never considered herself anything other than female.

             

            If the unfortunate happens and she is found, under the IAAF rules of competition, to be "not entirely female" it will be a heartbreaking and life-altering surprise to her.  And quite frankly it will be a sad day for the world of track and field.

             

            People have put up and torn down various straw men people a hundred times in this sink hole of a thread but my take is that all Jeff and those others not not simply giggling like schoolgirls as they bandy about slurs such as "shemale" have been trying to say is that until proven otherwise she should be considered a woman, that she's been a victim not a cheater, that she's entitled to more dignity and respect than people seem to be giving her, and that people can basically be cruel and stupid sometimes.

             

            mta: thanks srlopez.

            Runners run.

            xor


              Why must they be straw MEN??

               

              Straw people.  For some reason, this reminds me of Wicker Man.

               

                People have put up and torn down various straw men people a hundred times in this sink hole of a thread but my take is that all Jeff and those others not not simply giggling like schoolgirls as they bandy about slurs such as "shemale" have been trying to say is that until proven otherwise she should be considered a woman, that she's been a victim not a cheater, that she's entitled to more dignity and respect than people seem to be giving her, and that people can basically be cruel and stupid sometimes.

                 

                Crikey! He's right again.

                 

                If I weren't a shemale, I'd marry Mikey.


                just a simple cat

                  Get in line!

                   

                  Running is stupid

                    See I think it's just words like "poses" that get some people riled up.  Caster Semenya didn't pose as anything.  She was born and raised a girl and has never considered herself anything other than female.

                     

                    If the unfortunate happens and she is found, under the IAAF rules of competition, to be "not entirely female" it will be a heartbreaking and life-altering surprise to her.  And quite frankly it will be a sad day for the world of track and field.

                     

                    People have put up and torn down various straw men people a hundred times in this sink hole of a thread but my take is that all Jeff and those others not not simply giggling like schoolgirls as they bandy about slurs such as "shemale" have been trying to say is that until proven otherwise she should be considered a woman, that she's been a victim not a cheater, that she's entitled to more dignity and respect than people seem to be giving her, and that people can basically be cruel and stupid sometimes.

                     

                    mta: thanks srlopez.

                     

                    Ditto!

                     

                    Good and intelligent post.  I can see you were passionate when you wrote.  You always out do yourself!


                    Prince of Fatness

                      This is all Tanya's fault.

                       

                       

                      Semi-retired.

                        If she wore make-up and kept her hair long and more feminine, this would be a non-issue.

                         

                         

                         so now we can tell a woman how to dress so that there is no mistake of her gender???

                        'No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everyone on the couch'

                         

                        "Running is a big question mark that's there each and every day. It asks you, 'Are you going to be a wimp or are you going to be strong today?'"  - Peter Maher

                         

                        "Running long and hard is an ideal antidepressant, since it's hard to run and feel sorry for yourself at the same time. Also, there are those hours of clearheadedness that follow a long run."  -Monte Davis


                        HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                          At least no one will ever accuse me of being a shemale. 

                           

                          Would you sell me a vial of crack if I did, um, never mind.

                          It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                          HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                            I do think I learned something from some of the articles.  Including this one. 

                             

                            http://www.globerunner.org/blog/?p=235

                             

                             

                             

                            Wow, that was interesting -- darn it, I lost this thread cause it wasn't on the top list -- and it seemed to imply, without stating outright, that some of the past women disqualified for failing gender tests, were deliberate cheats (the bit about them hiding to change, and other athletes trying to peer over and catch them out). And this bit was interesting too:

                             

                            The Olympic movement has been dealing with intersex people since the 1930s. You’d think they would have got the hang of it by now.”

                             

                            But then in contrast to this statement, at the bottom of that article, the author kind of implied that the leak (& humiliating publicity) wasn't so much IAAF's fault as ASA's fault, and an SA-internal leak -- but with reference to "off-the-record discussions".

                            It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                              As an aside....

                               

                              You probably know that gender tests were introduced into athletics in 1966 following suspicion that Soviet athletes competing as females were male. Mandatory sex tests were introduced at Olympic Games but dropped after 1992.

                               

                              But do you know the only female competitor to be excused the examination at the 1972 Games in Munich?

                               

                              No googling - too easy for that.

                                If she wore make-up and kept her hair long and more feminine, this would be a non-issue.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                I hate to say that I was right. Actually, no I don't.