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On base building (Read 347 times)


Joggaholic

    A question on base building. When one tries to increase the mpw during base building (not moving toward sharpening or later training phases due to not having a goal race), should one focus on increasing just the amount of easy runs, or also proportionally increase the amount of other hard runs? For example, I've been running about 40mpw last year, with 1 or 2 hard runs in a week (always a long run plus sometimes an interval or a tempo run). I'm working on getting up to 50 to 60 mpw again (tried that a couple times last year but didn't succeed in staying at that mileage for long), and am wondering if there's a need to do at least 3 harder training runs a week, or should the focus mostly be just time on feet? And on a somewhat related topic, my simplistic understanding of easy run is that its purpose is to allow recovery during supercompensation after hard trainings, and causes the body to grow stronger during that phase. So if the frequency of hard-easy runs increase from added trainings in a week, the period for recovery/supercompensation must decrease, so what actually enables the body to decrease the recovery time? Is it just more running? I can't get my head around this chicken and the egg thing, I know someone can straighten me out here. Thanks.


    Finally PRed!!!

      Well, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I am will come in with a detailed answer from training science. But from my own personal experience, I would add more easy runs at first, until you are used to the added mileage and only after that add more quality. I ran at 40 mpw average for a long time and struggled to get consistently up to 50 mpw average. Then again, I'm also middle-aged, which may be a factor. Now I'm pretty comfortable with 50 mpw, and working at slowly nudging it up to 60. But by adding easy/recovery runs first, it seems to help make sure I get enough recovery in. If you do want to add more faster running, too, maybe adding it in the form of strides or short hill sprints would be a good way to do it without adding a lot of stress until you are adjusted to the new mileage. Especially in a base-building phase--I do think some quality during base-building is good to keep from feeling sluggish, but no need to overdo it, especially early--could lead to burn-out.

      PRs: 5K: 22:09, 10K:44:55, 15K: 1:10:35, HM: 1:42:49, M: 3:38:20


      A Saucy Wench

        Personally I found that trying to do both at once is too taxing especially when you are in the higher level of miles (i.e. its harder from 40-60 than it was from 20-40).    I would either keep it the same or even back off if necessary, ramp, reintroduce.  I do better with incremental increases anyway.  So maybe bump up a chunk, hold it there for a few weeks, bump up, etc.  Often I will struggle the first week to do my speed work, the second is better and by the third I have adapted.

         

        As for the amount of quality...you will probably be adding volume to the current quality work?  You are already running daily, so I am assuming the length of the individual runs will increase?  When I went up to the 60 mpw range what worked best for me was that I had the opportunity for some of the tempo/interval/hill sessions to be a longer workout than before, but then I also needed to really for the first time focus on a stricter recovery day/run where I ran really slower than I wanted to.

         

        I guess my point is a) dont try to do both at the same time, increase volume, adapt, if you want increase quality while holding volume, adapt...etc.  and b) dont over think it ahead of time.  See how you are adapting before deciding on a set plan of action.

        I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

         

        "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

        MrNamtor


        DON'T TREAD ON ME

          And on a somewhat related topic, my simplistic understanding of easy run is that its purpose is to allow recovery during supercompensation after hard trainings, and causes the body to grow stronger during that phase.

           

          I always preface anything i say on this forum with the statement that I'm a novice runner.

           

          My understanding of the easy (long) run is that it is conditioning for the speed/"hard" runs. I think the easy run is different, much different in purpose and character, from the "recovery run", which seems to be what you're talking about.

           

          Personally, I never do "recovery" runs. If I need to recover, I just don't run that day. I don't think i really even understand what the recovery run is or why anyone does one.

           

          If anyone can explain this or correct what i said above, please, you have my blessing in advance.


          Joggaholic

              I think the easy run is different, much different in purpose and character, from the "recovery run", which seems to be what you're talking about

             

            yes, I did misuse the two terms I think. When I attempted to run 3 harder runs a week, the easy and recovery runs sort of become one and the same, a run that is as slow as necessary to remain an easy effort. My thought was that easy pace and recovery run pace are listed differently but in terms of effort they are the same, is that correct or not?


            Feeling the growl again

              Focus on increasing the volume through easy runs first; you may even need to DECREASE the workout volume for awhile as you adjust.

               

              With regard to how to add higher-intensity workout volume...it is highly individual.  I would strongly recommend you work on adding volume to your current workouts rather than adding an entire extra workout (ie lengthen the tempo run or add another interval or two on).  The incremental recovery needed will be less than adding another entire workout in.  Later if you feel comfortable, you can shorten the workouts and add in another and see how it works.

               

              When I was in my 20s, I regularly did at least 3 workouts per week - 4-5 miles' worth of intervals on Tuesday (ie 8-10X800), 4-10 miles of tempo on Thursday, and a long run of 16-22 miles on Sunday...often with 4-10 miles of faster running in it.  If I felt extra good I might throw in a moderate workout Saturday (ie fartlek) if Sunday was going to be an easier long run.

               

              Now 8-10 years down the road I can't do that anymore.  I can't turn around and run really good workouts with just a day of rest in between like I used to.  I think most people are asking a lot of themselves if they don't take a couple easy days in between workouts, and if you do that you won't get in 3 workouts per week.

              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

               

              MJ5


              Chief Unicorn Officer

                I am in the process of building up more miles, and I am running mostly easier miles (a Lydiard-type model where I run three longer runs per week--1.5 hours, 1.5 hours, and 2 hours).  I am no expert but I think another thing to consider is the type of race you are training for, or if you're not training for a specific race, the type of race you do most often.  I am a mostly 5K girl, so I'm upping my endurance base but my tempo runs and interval workouts will still be geared toward the 5K.  It wouldn't do much (and could probably hinder me) to do these crazy long workouts that aren't race specific.

                Mile 5:49 - 5K 19:58 - 10K 43:06 - HM 1:36:54


                HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                  Not being restricted by a training plan or race goal means you can experiment with different types of workouts in different weeks, and have some fun, and both see what you enjoy, and find out how they feel to you: short hill repeats, long hill repeats, tempo runs, progression runs, cruise intervals, various types of intervals sets - simple sets, and also mixed sets, including pyramids, inverse pyramids, 800s alternated with 200s.....

                   

                  I think it's great to have fun with running.

                  It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                  Feeling the growl again

                     

                     

                    I think it's great to have fun with running.

                     

                    Now that's just crazy talk.  Didn't your HS gym teacher teach you anything?

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                       

                      Personally, I never do "recovery" runs. If I need to recover, I just don't run that day. I don't think i really even understand what the recovery run is or why anyone does one.

                       

                       

                      Mr. N,

                      I am glad to hear that, I thought it was just me. I don't like to bother going out for a short distance, doesn't seem worth the time of changing/showering. (Unless I am building back up from race or injury.) And I don't seem to be able to run (intentionally) much slower than normal.

                       

                      Please don't anyone take this as advice, because I don't really know what I'm doing. I ran a marathon fueled on equal parts naïveté and foolishness.

                      Dave

                         

                        yes, I did misuse the two terms I think. When I attempted to run 3 harder runs a week, the easy and recovery runs sort of become one and the same, a run that is as slow as necessary to remain an easy effort. My thought was that easy pace and recovery run pace are listed differently but in terms of effort they are the same, is that correct or not?

                         

                        It's not unusual for people to confuse easy and recovery runs. It took me a few years before I developed that lower gear or had a need for it. Recovery is generally easier effort than easy, but may overlap. Generally recovery runs are not run by pace - unless you need a guideline as to how easy to make the effort. Usually your body will keep it at recovery effort for you, if you need it. Sometimes walking or nothing makes a better recovery than slow running.

                        "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog


                        HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                          Here's a personal example -- if I run a 200 nearly all out, and then jog around the other 200 of the track, my body will naturally run very slowly, much more slowly than a usual "easy pace" -- due to the brief anaerobic exhaustion, I assume.

                          It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                          A Saucy Wench

                             

                            Personally, I never do "recovery" runs. If I need to recover, I just don't run that day. I don't think i really even understand what the recovery run is or why anyone does one.

                             

                            If anyone can explain this or correct what i said above, please, you have my blessing in advance.

                             

                            Double your miles.  Then you'll know.   Recovery runs take the fatigue out of your body faster than not running at all.  And they are easier than easy.  Or harder than easy.  Depending.  The pace is slower.  The run is not always easy psychologically

                             

                            I did reach a point where I had to go slower than easy in order to be able to do what I wanted to do the rest of the week.

                            I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                             

                            "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                            DanMoriarity


                               

                              Personally, I never do "recovery" runs. If I need to recover, I just don't run that day. I don't think i really even understand what the recovery run is or why anyone does one.

                               

                               

                               

                              This article helps explain it.

                               

                              http://running.competitor.com/2012/09/training/whats-the-real-benefit-of-recovery-runs_130

                              MrNamtor


                              DON'T TREAD ON ME

                                 

                                Double your miles.  Then you'll know.   Recovery runs take the fatigue out of your body faster than not running at all.  And they are easier than easy.  Or harder than easy.  Depending.  The pace is slower.  The run is not always easy psychologically

                                 

                                I did reach a point where I had to go slower than easy in order to be able to do what I wanted to do the rest of the week.

                                 

                                Yet the article linked by dan moriarity contradicts this. That article seems to imply that "recovery" is a misnomer, since the purpose of the recovery run is not recovery at all, but added stress (another run after a hard workout) to promote growth.

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