Interval purposes (side topic from pg3 of "other than experience" thread) (Read 7539 times)

    This is great stuff, thanks, but one more question. When training for my HM this spring I was doing long (~40-45 minute) tempos at what turned out to be a hair under HM pace. So I'm thinking that I eventually want to be running these intervals closer to 10K pace to see any difference between them and the long tempos. Initially I'll run them closer to HM pace just to get my feet wet. Sound reasonable? Also, from what I'm reading here, is this the order of priority when adjusting (for #3)? Decrease recovery time Increase speed Increase reps OK, that was 2 more questions.
    Yeah it sounds reasonable. That's pretty much what I do--I do long tempos between HMP and MP, and I do these types of cruise intervals at between 10k and HMP. If I'm doing 6 x 1000 I might do them a hair slower than 10k, if I'm doing 4 or 5 x 2 mile I might do them at close to HMP. It's a function of how much volume, really. To your 2nd question, yes those are the right priority to me. The other thing to consider as a way to decreas the recovery time is to do the same volume but with longer reps. For example, over several weeks/months you may do a series of workouts that consist of 6k worth of work at ~15k race pace. But even though you keep the pace roughly the same, you do longer and longer reps and keep the recovery intervals the same length so that the total volume of work stays the same but the total rest is reduced: 1. 8 x 800 / jog 200 2. 6 x 1000 / jog 200 3. 5 x 1200 / jog 200 4. 4 x 1600 / jog 200 5. 3 x 2000 / jog 200 6. 2 x 3000 / jog 200

    Runners run.


    Feeling the growl again

      spaniel, interesting post. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. I've read Daniels' Running Formula, and I'm confused as to how Daniels fits in with the above. Classic Daniels intervals, as I understand them, are 3-4 minute efforts at so-called "I-pace" (which would be slightly faster than 5k pace), with recovery times equal or a little less than interval times. These seem closest to #2, but I think your #2 recovery times are significantly longer. Daniels also writes about "R-pace" for 200-400 meter intervals (he calls them Reps), which look a lot like your #1 intervals. However, unlike your #1 workout, Daniels' reps are done fast, but not all out. Regarding your #3 intervals, I don't think I've seen anything in Daniels book that looks like this. Would you mind clearing this up if possible? Thanks!
      I can't say I've looked through Daniels in quite some time. However going from your post, I-pace is 3-4min intervals at slightly faster than 5K pace with recovery times equal to or a little less than the interval split. OK.... Well, when I am did 1000s they took 3:00-3:04, 5K pace or a little under, and I took 2min recovery. Longer intervals, like 1200s or miles, were a little over 5K pace but I was taking shorter than Daniels recover. So, if I were to run whatever distance took 3:30-4:00 to run, and took a Daniels recovery, I'd be able to speed them up a bit and get under 5K pace again. In other words, my #3 sounds like a very close approximation of the effort level you would feel following Daniels and doing I-pace repeats, which is kind validating since I arrived at this strategy having no idea what Daniels had to say about it! As for R-pace, I'd say it's the same. I say all-out but in reality you're not going to quite get there so it's probably the same thing. Sounds like my #2 don't fit in much with what Daniels recommends? Not surprising, I don't do much of the #2 workout.... So I went out and attempted my own advice last night, 8X800m on 90sec recovery. This was my first real attempt at this workout in over a year, so I was not expecting to finish the whole volume. Turns out I could have if it hadn't been a humid 83 degrees. To validate the "run by feel" thread, I've had issues in my few recent attempts at intervals with bonking early in the workout due to being aggressive and trying to get paces from "the good old days". This time I hit the start, but did not peek at the time until I finished each interval. I went 2:34-2:34-2:35-2:34-2:34-2:33. The heat was getting to me and I had a lot of miles scheduled for this weekend (and a 10K race on Monday) so I called it a day at 6. Slow, but good quality. Can't wait to at least "feel" fast doing them again in a few weeks.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

        One thing I'd add to the "increase speed" part would be "as race times come down". In other words I wouldn't increase the speed of intervals until I had the race times to support it. Didn't mean to interrupt Mikey but I get excited when the talk turns to these #3's, especially when someone who hasn't tried them yet joins in. I figure that they have helped me as much or more than any other facit of training. edit to add: Oops, looks like 2 responses came in while I was typing this one. Maybe it was covered? I'll go back and check.
        Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33


        Prince of Fatness

          Mikey .... just the info I was looking for. Thanks.

          Semi-retired.


          Ham & Egger

            Spaniel, Mikey, others: Here's just another question for you guys: I'm prepping up for a fall marathon, and am doing either 1000s or 1600m repeats@10k current pace (no goal pace stuff, I fried myself on that) or 2x4000m in & outs (10k 400/MP or 1:00 slower than 10kP). Where do you guys typically cap your overall volume? On these kinds of current fitness workouts, I'm inclined to keep it at 8000m worth...does this sound about right? Recovery on the 1000s are 1/4 distance or 1/2 time.
            www.tuscaloosarunner.blogspot.com
              Spaniel, Mikey, others: Here's just another question for you guys: I'm prepping up for a fall marathon, and am doing either 1000s or 1600m repeats@10k current pace (no goal pace stuff, I fried myself on that) or 2x4000m in & outs (10k 400/MP or 1:00 slower than 10kP). Where do you guys typically cap your overall volume? On these kinds of current fitness workouts, I'm inclined to keep it at 8000m worth...does this sound about right? Recovery on the 1000s are 1/4 distance or 1/2 time.
              If I'm doing work at 10k pace I usually do around 4 miles worth, but I wouldn't be surprised if spaniel and other high mileage runners do more than that. 8k worth sounds reasonable--I know some people will do a full 10k worth. For the 10k/MP in out 400s I'd generally do the full race distance that I'm working on. I haven't done that specific workout you're talking about but I've done 600 in/outs at 5K/HMP as well as 400 in/outs at 8k/MP. In those cases I did 5k and 8k worth in total. I haven't done those since '04 but they are great workouts. By the way, tuscaloosa, I've been spying on your training log--some really nice work. Nice workout on Friday. I did a very similar one on Sunday but I did it during a 20 miler (well 19.5 actually) and ran 3 minutes easy between each 3 mile MP rep. Great workout.

              Runners run.

                In Daniels book, he talks pace and then gives the appropriate HR, when I do an interval run, I am hoping the pace will put my HR in the appropriate zone, otherwise, I will up the pace to get my HR there, and then I try to hold it for around 600 to 1000 meters, it usually takes me about 1 lap to get it up to above 88 percent zone after a good 15 minute to 30 minute very slow warmup to these intensities. Usually, the pace is close to the proper HR, but I have to make adjustments on the track and it results in about a 1200 meter workout. Its not full speed and I currentely am working on going on to longer intervals like 2k because once I have my HR there, I am trying to put in as much time as possible at that pace and I spent too much time slowing down and jogging the last time, as to the question, I really don't know what they are 4, I just do them because they are suppose to be done.


                Ham & Egger

                  If I'm doing work at 10k pace I usually do around 4 miles worth, but I wouldn't be surprised if spaniel and other high mileage runners do more than that. 8k worth sounds reasonable--I know some people will do a full 10k worth. For the 10k/MP in out 400s I'd generally do the full race distance that I'm working on. I haven't done that specific workout you're talking about but I've done 600 in/outs at 5K/HMP as well as 400 in/outs at 8k/MP. In those cases I did 5k and 8k worth in total. I haven't done those since '04 but they are great workouts. By the way, tuscaloosa, I've been spying on your training log--some really nice work. Nice workout on Friday. I did a very similar one on Sunday but I did it during a 20 miler (well 19.5 actually) and ran 3 minutes easy between each 3 mile MP rep. Great workout.
                  Thanks mike. I've been thinking about moving those longer tempos into my long run every other week once I'm about 11 weeks out or so--it makes a lot of sense, just need to think how that will affect the rest of my week. I tend to use more of a complex method thing as opposed to Lydiard periodization--it's what lead to my best shape thusfar. Right on the in/outs--the total is 8k or so, as I'm not sure I can humanly sustain any more voluem than that on those workous--and obsessor's right, the "recoveries" are a real bitch.
                  www.tuscaloosarunner.blogspot.com


                  Feeling the growl again

                    Spaniel, Mikey, others: Here's just another question for you guys: I'm prepping up for a fall marathon, and am doing either 1000s or 1600m repeats@10k current pace (no goal pace stuff, I fried myself on that) or 2x4000m in & outs (10k 400/MP or 1:00 slower than 10kP). Where do you guys typically cap your overall volume? On these kinds of current fitness workouts, I'm inclined to keep it at 8000m worth...does this sound about right? Recovery on the 1000s are 1/4 distance or 1/2 time.
                    I've never done more than 5 miles' worth of intervals in a workout (recoveries excluded) if they are 10K pace or above. Slower stuff starts to look more like cruise or tempo effort and is more flexible, but 5 miles' worth is quite a bit of volume. Right now I'm happy if I can do 4 miles of volume at 5K pace.

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     


                    Right on Hereford...

                      In Daniels book, he talks pace and then gives the appropriate HR, when I do an interval run, I am hoping the pace will put my HR in the appropriate zone, otherwise, I will up the pace to get my HR there, and then I try to hold it for around 600 to 1000 meters, it usually takes me about 1 lap to get it up to above 88 percent zone after a good 15 minute to 30 minute very slow warmup to these intensities. Usually, the pace is close to the proper HR, but I have to make adjustments on the track and it results in about a 1200 meter workout. Its not full speed and I currentely am working on going on to longer intervals like 2k because once I have my HR there, I am trying to put in as much time as possible at that pace and I spent too much time slowing down and jogging the last time, as to the question, I really don't know what they are 4, I just do them because they are suppose to be done.
                      Everest, I'm not sure if heart rate is useful for interval workouts. It sounds like you're using heart rate to measure effort. One of the big problems with that, as you've already discovered, is that heart rate lags effort by minutes or more. Therefore, you will find yourself running much faster in the early laps of each interval than you should, in an attempt to get your heart rate up to some magic zone. I don't recall Daniels saying much about heart rate...what does he say, exactly?


                      Feeling the growl again

                        Everest, I'm not sure if heart rate is useful for interval workouts. It sounds like you're using heart rate to measure effort. One of the big problems with that, as you've already discovered, is that heart rate lags effort by minutes or more. Therefore, you will find yourself running much faster in the early laps of each interval than you should, in an attempt to get your heart rate up to some magic zone. I don't recall Daniels saying much about heart rate...what does he say, exactly?
                        There is only one time I use HR reliably. 5 days or so before a marathon, I will strap on my HRM and run 4Xmile repeats with 5min recovery. I know that whatever pace I run these at 160-165 bpm will give me the range I can expect my marathon pace to fall in assuming similar weather. The repeats, however, are not a mile. I will run 200-400m "lead-in" for each repeat so that my HR is already at 160-165 when I cross the line to start the repeat. Otherwise, the first part of the repeat adds meaningless noise to the purpose of the workout as 200m is the minimal distance needed for me to get into the correct HR zone and HR is a poor reporter of instantaneous effort. HR is decent for sustained efforts as long as it's not hot. But not so great for intervals.

                        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                         


                        Prince of Fatness

                          OK, I took a stab at this. I decided to go with 6 x 1000 with 90 second recovery. I don't have access to a track, so I programmed the workout into my Garmin and headed to a local park. It's not completely flat, but I don't have to deal with traffic, so it has to do. I plugged my recent 4 mile race time into the McMillan calculator and it came up with a 4:18 per K pace for a 10K and a 4:33 per K pace for a HM. I figure for this first time I would shoot for anywhere in the 4:20's. Workout results All in all I'm pretty happy with the way it went. Maybe a little fast. We'll see how I feel the next day or so, but I really think I came close to doing these the way I should be according to my current fitness level.

                          Semi-retired.

                            If you continue to do these consistently I will be surprised if you don't see meaningful results. Nice workout.
                            Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33


                            Feeling the growl again

                              OK, I took a stab at this. I decided to go with 6 x 1000 with 90 second recovery. I don't have access to a track, so I programmed the workout into my Garmin and headed to a local park. It's not completely flat, but I don't have to deal with traffic, so it has to do. I plugged my recent 4 mile race time into the McMillan calculator and it came up with a 4:18 per K pace for a 10K and a 4:33 per K pace for a HM. I figure for this first time I would shoot for anywhere in the 4:20's. Workout results All in all I'm pretty happy with the way it went. Maybe a little fast. We'll see how I feel the next day or so, but I really think I came close to doing these the way I should be according to my current fitness level.
                              Looks good. Could jog a little slower on your recoveries if you want.

                              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                               


                              Prince of Fatness

                                Looks good. Could jog a little slower on your recoveries if you want.
                                Thanks. Yeah, I'm going to try to slow those recoveries down. The other factor there is the Garmin. I can't here it beep when the interval is over, so I went a few seconds over for a couple of them which skewed the pace calculation on the recoveries a bit.

                                Semi-retired.