Need help with striders. (Read 1075 times)

For a specific speed workout going all-out for 40-50m several times is appropriate.

A don't really want to start a debate, so I'll state my opinion and be done with it. Striders aren't a speed workout, at least not for a distance runner. Strides are done at an anaerobic pace, so they really have nothing to do with improving your VO2 max. They certainly have nothing to do with your LT or M pace running. Pftizinger is quite clear ("Advanced Marathoning" page 29) that strides are designed to improve your running economy. They are a form drill designed to improve efficiency, comfort, and leg turnover. What may be confusing to you is that in "Road Racing for Serious Runners," Pfitzinger tacks his discussion of striders onto the end of his VO2 chapter. This results in an unfortunate and (I think) misleading characterization -- something that Pfitzinger took the time to correct in his later book. Even more recently, in 2006, Pfitzinger defined classic strides as "accelerations of about 80 to 150 meters, and are the classic workout to improve leg turnover." Lab Report: Essential Ingredients VI (http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=8732&PageNum=1). He's pretty clear again that its a form drill, not a speed workout. As far as Daniel's is concerned, if you think that his R-paced running is anything other than strides with another name, well, we simply disagree. R-paced running, according to Daniels is "aimed more at anaerobic and biomechanical factors .... making sure that each workbout is done with proper technique and adequate recovery" (Running Formula, 2d ed, page 131). Further, the goal of R-paced workbouts is to "become more comfortable, or more efficient" (page 132). My philosophy is that if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, its a duck. Daniel's R-paced workouts walk and sqwauk like a strider.

My issue with what you posted was going 100-200m at an all out pace, I did re-read your post and saw that you said it was probably about 1-mile race pace, but 1-mile race pace is not an all out pace and doing several repetitions of 100-200m at top speed is a not something most people should do unless they are training for very short distance races (800m and below)

I never said that striders were to be run at an all out pace. Actually, what I did say is that strides should be as fast as you can run them without sacrificing excellent running form. That might be 1-mile pace. Or it might be faster. Or it might be slower. It doesn't matter, because for any able-bodied runner its going to be an anaerobic pace anyway. There's a reason you won't find Pfitzinger give any exact guidance on the pace to use for striders in either "Advanced Marathoning" or "Road Racing" -- its not about hitting a designated pace or holding it for a magic distance. However, I know that some people might wish some kind of guidance on what proper stride pace might be, and hence my advice that its probably around your mile race pace. In any event, John, thanks for your contributions to this thread. I always enjoy a good training discussion with someone who is familiar with the same resources that I rely upon. I think that our definitions overlap much more than you seem willing to concede, but your opinion is your own and I'd be hypocritical if I pretended that I'm offended by a bit a good-mannered disagreement.

Berner - I too enjoy a good discussion. Just to be clear I agree that strides are anaerobic, they are not a meant to be a specific speed workout for a distance runner, and they are meant to work on form. The way Pfitz describes them even in the link you gave sound more like a a specific workout than just a form drill (it walks like a workout and squawks like a workout . To me any time the distance/pace is such that you're starting to accumulate Lactic acid, or you're doing so many that it feels mentally like an additional workout it becomes a workout not just a form drill, I guess the point of debate is at what point does that happen. I prefer to keep my strides and the strides of the athletes I coach on the short and few end (50-80m 4-6 times vs. 80-150m 8-16 times that pfitz decsribes). By keeping them short I can inject some speed even on easy days w/o taxing the system and still come back and do a hard workout the next day if that's what is planned. I do believe Daniel's R-Paced runs are something other than striders because a) he devotes a specific training block to doing Reps b) he gives a very spefic pace for reps vs. an approximate pace for striders although they are very similar in nature. Oh well, tomato / tomahto good discussion

All I have to say is I actually own all of the running books mentioned. Does that make me a running geek?

Gotcha. But... Sometimes they make up one of my quality days and I run easy the day before and the day after. Sometimes I tack them onto the end of (or in the middle of) an easy run and I still do a hard workout the next day without having back-to-back workout days. Sometimes I do them at the end of a long run. Sometimes I do them at the end of a workout. Sometimes I do them before a race or a workout as part of my warmup. So it seems I still don't know which neat little box to put them in... And Willa, that's not what makes you a running geek. Not on it's own anyway.

Exactly, you can make them a quality day if you want, but they can be used in a variety of different ways, most of which you've mentioned. They're unique like that they don't have a particular box, they are their own thing. Willa: We're on a running message board discussing / debating striders - we're all running geeks! I take pride in that myself

Gotcha. But... Sometimes they make up one of my quality days and I run easy the day before and the day after. Sometimes I tack them onto the end of (or in the middle of) an easy run and I still do a hard workout the next day without having back-to-back workout days. Sometimes I do them at the end of a long run. Sometimes I do them at the end of a workout. Sometimes I do them before a race or a workout as part of my warmup.

Are you from Whoville? Do you possible like green eggs and ham?