12

1st Marathon Training Plan Advice (Read 1637 times)

ud32


    I've been running fairly consistently for past 5 years. I've completed 5 half marathons over the past few years and am considering training for a November Marathon - about 17 weeks away. I'm seeking advice on two things:

     

    1) How much of a mileage base do I need ? The past 52 weeks I've averaged 17 miles/week, past 6 months 18 and past 3 months avg 19 miles a week.

     

    2) If I have enough base is there a popular 1st timer training program ? I've used a few programs for other distances from a book I have Runner's Handbook by Bob Glover and Shelly-lynn Florence Glover. There are two first timer programs in there - one builds from a 15/week base and one from a 20/week base.

     

    Thanks


    Interval Junkie --Nobby

      Caveat ´╗┐Precipio: I just ran my first marathon in the Spring.

       

      There are many first-timer programs out there.  Hal Higdon's is very popular, leading to a lot of happy 1st time finishers.

       

      Generally, the first-timer programs get you up to 35-40mpw.

       

      BTW: I really enjoyed the "Competitive Runner's Handbook" by Glover & Glover -- a comprehensive book and a great read.

       

      Good luck in your first.  Which one are you considering running? 

      2014 Goals:  sub-3 Marathon 

      Current Status 08/28: Slowly working back up from a pelvic stress fracture.  4mil distance PR w00t!

        I've been running fairly consistently for past 5 years. I've completed 5 half marathons over the past few years and am considering training for a November Marathon - about 17 weeks away. I'm seeking advice on two things:

         

        1) How much of a mileage base do I need ? The past 52 weeks I've averaged 17 miles/week, past 6 months 18 and past 3 months avg 19 miles a week.

         

        2) If I have enough base is there a popular 1st timer training program ? I've used a few programs for other distances from a book I have Runner's Handbook by Bob Glover and Shelly-lynn Florence Glover. There are two first timer programs in there - one builds from a 15/week base and one from a 20/week base.

         

        Thanks

        You seem to have fairly good basic fitness, being able to run 9:XX pace regularly, having run a half marathon in 1:49 (8:20 per mile pace).  But for someone like that, the overall "volume" of running is very low.  Increasing weekly mileage BY ONE MILE per 3 months is not much at all.  I'm not the one to suggest any set number of miles per week but so far your progression has been minimal.  You'll need to increase the duration of your long run, if you want to train for a marathon, gradually up to about 2-hours of CONTINUOUS running because you'll need the muscular endurance in order to run a decent marathon.  To do this comfortably and SAFELY, you'll probably need to slow down a notch; your ideal long run pace should be, based on your recent half marathon time, is about 9:45-10:00.  It is also advisable to have another medium long run of about 1:15-1:20 during the week.  You seem to have been running 4-times a week consistently in the past.  To me, that's minimal.  You shouldn't slip down more than that--to me, 3-times a week is not enough; the more the better.

         

        Your weekly plan should look something like this for the next 10-weeks:

         

        19 weeks before race

        PhaseDateRankWorkoutDistanceDurationPaceRPEMin
        Max
        Aerobic 7/15/2012
        Sunday
        1

        Long Aerobic Run

        9 mi

        (7 - 10 mi)

        1:30:00

        (1:17:00 - 1:39:00)

        10:12 / mi

        (11:07 - 9:41 / mi)

        3 - 5 130 149
          7/16/2012
        Monday
         

        Rest Day

             
        Aerobic 7/17/2012
        Tuesday
        4

        Jog

        3.5 mi

        (3 - 4.5 mi)

        41:00

        (36:00 - 46:00)

        10:58 / mi

        (11:56 - 10:24 / mi)

        1 - 3 111 130
          7/18/2012
        Wednesday
         

        Rest Day

             
        Aerobic 7/19/2012
        Thursday
        3

        Aerobic Run

        6.5 mi

        (5.5 - 8 mi)

        1:08:00

        (58:00 - 1:15:00)

        10:03 / mi

        (10:58 - 9:31 / mi)

        3 - 5 130 149
          7/20/2012
        Friday
         

        Rest Day

             
        Aerobic 7/21/2012
        Saturday
        2

        Out & Back

        5.5 mi

        (4.5 - 6.5 mi)

        54:00

        (47:00 - 1:01:00)

        9:32 / mi

        (10:22 - 9:05 / mi)

        4 - 7 139 162

         

        You should be able to increase your weekend long run up to 2:15 safely in the next 10-weeks; that will put you about 13.5 miles for your long run.  I'm against this popular notion of "3 x 20-miler" plan.  Particularly for a beginner, all it would do is to make you too tired before the marathon.  You've got to realize your main objective is NOT to complete some impressive training plan; but to complete the 26-miler comfortably without hurting yourself.

         

        After 10-weeks of this kind of program, you'll need to strengthen your legs by running over the hills for a few weeks; then replace that hill workout with intervals.  Your ideal interval should be something like 4 X 1 miles in 8:15 pace.  You don't need to kill yourself, trying to run these fast.  You've run 7:17 pace for a 5k before so this should be quite comfortable.  But this would push the envelope that you would not be able to do by just running at 9:45 pace all the time.  The final month should be spent by doing a longish near marathon-pace work; this, for you, would be something like 1:20-1:30 at about 8:45 pace.  If all the pieces would have been developed up to that point--meaning, not being worked on like crap-shooting--, you should be able to manage that comfortably.  If all the blocks being worked on and developed, the progression should be made NATURALLY and you should be able to shoot for 3:45 marathon.  Good luck.

        HCH


          I don't have much to add, except to say listen to Nobby. You have a good base, but before you tackle the marathon you should have a great base. Otherwise, those long runs are too taxing. They will leave you exahusted and prone to injury. I have run 3 marathons, the most recent of which was on a lower mileage base due to injuries. Suffice it to say, I will never, ever, ever attempt a marathon on weak mileage again!

           

          And Nobby, thank you so much for your willingness to share your wisdom and knowledge with us!

          - Holly

          ud32


            Nobby - thanks so much for the detailed advice. Your generosity is extremely appreciated. One question - although I may think of more - what does the RPE column stand for - I first thought Race Pace Equivalent - if so hat does it mean ? For example - Long Run of 9 miles - does that mean run 1-3 of those mile sat Marathon Race Pace Goal ?? Actually two questions ? Rank - I assume that is order of importance of run - meaning the Long run is the most crucial workout.

             

            Thanks again!

              Nobby - thanks so much for the detailed advice. Your generosity is extremely appreciated. One question - although I may think of more - what does the RPE column stand for - I first thought Race Pace Equivalent - if so hat does it mean ? For example - Long Run of 9 miles - does that mean run 1-3 of those mile sat Marathon Race Pace Goal ?? Actually two questions ? Rank - I assume that is order of importance of run - meaning the Long run is the most crucial workout.

               

              Thanks again!

               

              I think the RPE is a rating of how hard the run feels, on a scale of 0-10.

                I think the RPE is a rating of how hard the run feels, on a scale of 0-10.

                 

                Rate of Perceived Exertion.  Yes, how hard you are running.  I always look at my warm-up as a 4-5.  My aerobic and easy long runs at 6-7 (you should be able to carry on a conversation without getting winded).  My tempo runs at a 8-low end 9.  10 is a 100% effort sprint and should really never be used in training.

                  Nobby - thanks so much for the detailed advice. Your generosity is extremely appreciated. One question - although I may think of more - what does the RPE column stand for - I first thought Race Pace Equivalent - if so hat does it mean ? For example - Long Run of 9 miles - does that mean run 1-3 of those mile sat Marathon Race Pace Goal ?? Actually two questions ? Rank - I assume that is order of importance of run - meaning the Long run is the most crucial workout.

                   

                  Thanks again!

                  I don't mean to "sell" our on-line training program here (well, maybe a little... ;o)) but the thing is; whatever I may suggest, it's in there.  We (Lorraine Moller, Dick Brown and myself) had spent probably the last 5 years, developing this program.  And of course, the basis of this program is Lydiard training which is probably the best proven and most widely accepted as the most effective training method--it's just it seems not very many people have a good grip on what it is and how it's applied to various situations.  Basically, we made it more widely available.  I guess I was in the real core of all of that to make sure it's practical and "make-sense" in terms of how I would view as effective training plan.  

                   

                  That said, in the situation like this, it had made it so much easier for me as well to just show, in detail, what the training plan I might suggest would look like.  In many cases, the pace might appear a bit too slow for a lot of people but, interestingly, we have applied this to a lot of runners and and it seems that the better (faster) the runner, the more right-on the pace is--with both regular training runs as well as interval paces.  This shows either (a) slower runners are training way too fast; or (b) slower runner's "race times" are very much slower than what they are really capable of.  Personally, this is one plan I feel very confident about with suggesting to anybody--we have an example of a 2:24 marathon runner using this and ran 2:21 as well as someone whose previous PR being 5:30 and improved his time to 4:50.  We haven't had a guinea pig using a Beginner's Marathon plan where it'll walk you through from 15-minutes of running to a completion of a full marathon in 39-weeks...  Anybody interested??? ;o)

                   

                  I didn't want to show the whole plan (I guess I could have...) so I only showed the one week sample.  Of course, the efficacy of this plan lies completing the whole pieces; meaning, it's not something you do here and there but do other things for other parts of the program.  That really won't work.  There's a reason--trust me, a well-thought reason--in just about every piece of this program.  If you just do one part of it and not the other, which surprisingly a lot of people seem to do, it won't bring you the expected results.  It's like; anybody remember when Rachel in "friends" made that whatever you call that dish, layers of custard and banana and jam and what-not...and then the page of the cook-book was stuck so she put meat and some other weird stuff?  It's like that.  Oh, I like this structure so I'll follow the weekly plan for Conditioning Phase but I don't like to do Hills...  It's like saying; "Oh, I like this omelet but I don't like egg so take egg out..."  Well, that's not omelet any more, is it?  It may still taste fine but it ain't omelet no more.  Same with our Recovery Indicators.  The actual plan part is still just one part of a jigsaw puzzle.  You have to be able to handle what the plan indicates by fully recovering from daily workouts.  If not, you're not using it correctly.

                   

                  At any rate, if you're actually really interested, I'd suggest you actually go to our site (www.running-wizard.com) and check it out.  Even the HR, I just used mine for the time-being (55bpm) and my age; you have to plug in your own to get your own suggested HR range.  RPE as well--it's "Rate of Perceived Effort" and here's just an example:

                   

                  Long Aerobic Run: 1/4 - 1/2 of Lydiard Effort Chart

                  RPEIntensityBreathingTalking% VO2 Max
                  3 Moderate Comfortable Easy 55
                  4 Somewhat strong Noticeable Somewhat easy 65
                  5 Strong Deep, but steady Challenging but in control 75

                   

                  I think this is for your Aerobic Running.  3 and 4 are suggested but for some people, it may get to 5.  We tried to make this as a teaching tool--you get example of pace, HR and RPE and, if used correctly, you should be able to start seeing the relationship among these personal information.  You'll soon realize what 9:30 pace feels like or HR of 145 feels like or what your HR or "feel (RPE)" for Tempo Run (we call it Out & Back) may feel like.  That's the ultimate objective.  

                    I don't have much to add, except to say listen to Nobby. You have a good base, but before you tackle the marathon you should have a great base. Otherwise, those long runs are too taxing. They will leave you exahusted and prone to injury. I have run 3 marathons, the most recent of which was on a lower mileage base due to injuries. Suffice it to say, I will never, ever, ever attempt a marathon on weak mileage again!

                     

                    And Nobby, thank you so much for your willingness to share your wisdom and knowledge with us!

                    Flattered.  Thanks.

                      Nobby - thanks so much for the detailed advice. Your generosity is extremely appreciated. One question - although I may think of more - what does the RPE column stand for - I first thought Race Pace Equivalent - if so hat does it mean ? For example - Long Run of 9 miles - does that mean run 1-3 of those mile sat Marathon Race Pace Goal ?? Actually two questions ? Rank - I assume that is order of importance of run - meaning the Long run is the most crucial workout.

                       

                      Thanks again!

                      One more thing--"Rank" is the workout priority.  If, say, I put down 4-days-a-week training plan (which, again, is the minimum of what we recommend) but IF something comes up and you absolutely have to miss a day's workout, then take the one with the lowest priority (which actually comes out as the highest number).  So that's just the showing which workout is more important than the other each week.

                        Rate of Perceived Exertion.  Yes, how hard you are running.  I always look at my warm-up as a 4-5.  My aerobic and easy long runs at 6-7 (you should be able to carry on a conversation without getting winded).  My tempo runs at a 8-low end 9.  10 is a 100% effort sprint and should really never be used in training.

                         

                        Maddog:

                         

                        This is the chart we use--from Dr. Gunner Borg.  Easy aerobic run would be RPE 3-5.

                         

                        RPE

                        Intensity

                        Breathing

                        Talking

                        % VO2 Max

                        1

                        Very Easy

                        Normal

                        Normal

                        35

                        2

                        Easy

                        Normal

                        Normal

                        45

                        3

                        Moderate

                        Comfortable

                        Easy

                        55

                        4

                        Somewhat strong

                        Noticeable

                        Half/half with talk/breathe

                        65

                        5

                        Strong

                        Deep, but steady

                        Challenging but in control

                        75

                        6

                        Between strong & very strong

                        Deep & somewhat rapid

                        Difficult

                        85

                        7

                        Strong - very strong

                        Deep & rapid

                        Very difficult

                        90

                        8

                        Very strong

                        Very deep & very rapid

                        Extremely difficult

                        95

                        9

                        Very, very strong

                        Very deep & very rapid

                        No

                        98

                        10

                        Maximum effort

                        Breathlessness

                        Impossible

                        100

                         

                        You're right though; it's not Rate of Perceived Effort, but Rate of Perceived Exertion

                          The RPE chart has caught my eye.  According to RA and other calculators, I have never exceeded 45% VO2Max. Wow, if that's correct, imagine what I could achieve if i weren't so lazy.

                           

                          According to the descriptions in the chart, I'd say I have reached level 6 or 7 during races.  Anyway, comments, anyone?

                          Well at least someone here is making relevance to the subject.

                            my goal is never to go to '11'.

                              The RPE chart has caught my eye.  According to RA and other calculators, I have never exceeded 45% VO2Max. Wow, if that's correct, imagine what I could achieve if i weren't so lazy.

                               

                              According to the descriptions in the chart, I'd say I have reached level 6 or 7 during races.  Anyway, comments, anyone?

                               

                              I've chatted while racing a 10K.  It was labored, sure, but I don't know if it was even very difficult.  A marathon is like a three or a four for me, based on breathing. 

                               

                              Based on heart rate and "feel" other than breathing, the scale would be totally different for me. If I look just at the intensity, then it makes sense for me.  Of course, I do breathing exercises all the time, and have for years.  I'm also a former swimmer and singer.  So I imagine all those affect breath control.

                              "When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." 
                              Emil Zatopek

                                Of course, I do breathing exercises all the time, and have for years.  I'm also a former swimmer and singer.  So I imagine all those affect breath control.

                                 

                                Yes, I think my musician training has greatly influenced my running breathing.

                                Well at least someone here is making relevance to the subject.

                                12