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Calling anyone interested in a Running - Wizard training group (Read 1450 times)

    Welcome pabstars.  I should be starting December 9th.  However, I just went to see a surgeon to get an opinion on a small hernia around my belly button that I have ignored for about 13 years.  Based on his advice I think I am going to go ahead and get it fix.  The date for my operation is December 10th and I will need a 6 week recovery and hence no running.  Still want to jump in and do a 18 week marathon preparation instead of a 24 weeks one as planned. 

     

    Keep posting weekly if you can and let us know how your workouts are going.

      Welcome pabstars.  I should be starting December 9th.  However, I just went to see a surgeon to get an opinion on a small hernia around my belly button that I have ignored for about 13 years.  Based on his advice I think I am going to go ahead and get it fix.  The date for my operation is December 10th and I will need a 6 week recovery and hence no running.  Still want to jump in and do a 18 week marathon preparation instead of a 24 weeks one as planned. 

       

      Keep posting weekly if you can and let us know how your workouts are going.

      Runner Bliss:

       

      Do you want me to "clear" your current plan so you can start over and get a 18-week plan instead of 24?  In the situation like that, make sure you you get a longer Conditioning Phase to gradually get back to your fitness.  If you already have a 24-week plan and you skip the first 6 weeks, then you'll skip the 6 weeks of Conditioning, meaning you'll only have 4 weeks of build-up and go straight into Hills and Intervals.  Especially with the situation like you'll be having--recovery rest from operation--I would not recommend that structure.  You'd rather have 10 solid weeks of Conditioning to start with and chop a week here and there from other Phases which RW would do it for you (if you re-do the process).

        Good luck with the operation, Runners bliss. I will give a report in about a week to tell how everything is going. Probably quite a bit of the training will have to be on a treadmill the next couple of days as the weather will change in Denmark with a lot of snow.


        Hungry


          I recently purchased the Running Wizard program. My start date is not until January 6; I wanted to give myself some time to ramp up mileage gradually by then. The program is 24 weeks, then Grandma's Marathon in Duluth, MN on June 22. I'd be interested in seeing this thread stay alive to see the progress and insights of others using this program.

          I'm doing about 40 mpw now. Ran a 3:21:37 at Twin Cities Marathon on October 7 (my first marathon in 16 years, of only 3 total -- so far). I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate program and felt well-prepared. My max weekly mileage was only about 55 miles, so I'm a bit intimidated by the Running Wizard program, which has me doing a number of 70+ mile weeks during the initial phase.

          This is also my first post on RA (after lurking here for about a year). I love this site and appreciate reading the words of wisdom and encouragement I see here daily.

          --Bob


            I recently purchased the Running Wizard program. My start date is not until January 6; I wanted to give myself some time to ramp up mileage gradually by then. The program is 24 weeks, then Grandma's Marathon in Duluth, MN on June 22. I'd be interested in seeing this thread stay alive to see the progress and insights of others using this program.

            I'm doing about 40 mpw now. Ran a 3:21:37 at Twin Cities Marathon on October 7 (my first marathon in 16 years, of only 3 total -- so far). I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate program and felt well-prepared. My max weekly mileage was only about 55 miles, so I'm a bit intimidated by the Running Wizard program, which has me doing a number of 70+ mile weeks during the initial phase.

            This is also my first post on RA (after lurking here for about a year). I love this site and appreciate reading the words of wisdom and encouragement I see here daily.

            --Bob

            Bob:

             

            Did you get all information plugged in correctly?  Long run duration, # of days, etc.  My best suggestion is to make sure you USE RECOVERY INDICATORS as often as possible.  If you are over-training, it should show.  And, in such case, make sure you follow its instruction; either take it easy or take a day off.  RI is a very important part of RW program.  Any training plan, no matter how well put-together it may be, is still nothing but a guide.  By incorporating RI, RW will then be really personalized training plan FOR YOU.  Don't just blindly follow it just because it shows the plan.  Good luck.

             

            Nobby


            Hungry

              Nobby, Wow, thanks for the fast response! I'm pretty sure I entered my info correctly. I think my biggest challenge will be finding time for the longer mid-week runs. Getting a 12-miler in before work is tough -- doing it in Minnesota, in the winter, when it's dark out, even more so. I'll pay close attention to the Recovery Indicators and back off when necessary, though. I also appreciate your comment about not following the program "blindly." Thanks again!

                In the financial world, the 3 T's apply: Timing, timing and timing.

                 

                I have really been looking forward to start the Running-wizard program on 2. December with a count-down of 24 weeks to my marathon. Running 2 hours at a comfortable pace shouldn't be a big deal. Being unable to have a morning run yesterday, I decided to go for an evening run. The only problem was the weather. It had been snowing in the morning, the snow had thawn a bit and in the evening it was freezing again. So the roads were absolutely horrible being icy and very slippery. So after 14 km my calves were having a rotten time because I was afraid of stumbling all the time. Decided to do most of the remaining mileage on a treadmill but this was not either very nice because the calves were sore. Why the snow just had to invade Denmark the same day as my marathon program started I really don't know.

                 

                Unfortunately, the weather forecast predicts at least 6 days with snow every day. It is definitely OK with snow weather but when you have some thaw it gets horribly slippery why the treadmill seems to be the major player for at least another week. For the trips outdoors in the near future, I will not be using my GPS equipment as I'll just get annoyed with a pace which is too slow; Just pressing myself too hard to keep a decent pace is not the way to have a balanced program!

                JML


                  I created a Running-Wizard user group to give us a forum for ongoing discussions on this training method.  It is a public group that is available by clicking here.

                   

                  Please join if you are interested.  All are welcome.

                   

                  Thanks

                   2014 goals: run a bunch....race some.....repeat...

                    Nobby, Wow, thanks for the fast response! I'm pretty sure I entered my info correctly. I think my biggest challenge will be finding time for the longer mid-week runs. Getting a 12-miler in before work is tough -- doing it in Minnesota, in the winter, when it's dark out, even more so. I'll pay close attention to the Recovery Indicators and back off when necessary, though. I also appreciate your comment about not following the program "blindly." Thanks again!

                     

                    BTW, Nobby is a Minnesotan as well

                     

                    The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                     

                    2014 Goals:

                     

                    Stay healthy

                    Enjoy life

                     

                      ...I'm doing about 40 mpw now. Ran a 3:21:37 at Twin Cities Marathon on October 7 (my first marathon in 16 years, of only 3 total -- so far). I used the Hal Higdon Intermediate program and felt well-prepared. My max weekly mileage was only about 55 miles, so I'm a bit intimidated by the Running Wizard program, which has me doing a number of 70+ mile weeks during the initial phase...

                      Bob:

                       

                      Ii have a little gismo (separate spreadsheet) to check the mileage for RW plans.  As you might have noticed, RW is based on time.  We added the mileage column later because people do like to think of workout in terms of distance instead of time (I like to run around the lake which is 5 miles, etc.).  In reality, or in theory, as you get fitter, you need to be running further and faster...that is, if things are going well.  We were a bit concerned about this so I had created this spreadsheet to check things out and make sure.  We basically have Point A (where we are right now) and Point B (where you want to be).  One thing that always bugged me with "regular" training plan is; "Okay, so you want to run a 3:30 marathon; then your MP is 8-minute-pace and you should train accordingly..."  Well, that's where you want to be and where you are right now.  Just as we try to build up the long run gradually, everything else would have to be done that way.  Basically that's what Lydiard training is all about--one development comes after another.  So, when it comes to the Conditioning Phase, our goal was to get you up to 2:00-2:30 range comfortably; some may have to do it a bit more aggressively than others depending on where you're starting and how much time you have.  So we had to make sure it's not some bogus thing like--whatever your background and/or your current fitness level is; you NEED to run 3 X 20-milers.  That to me is bogus.  I believe far too many people have gotten hurt by doing this approach.  Now, we sort of kinda have this "10% rule" which I personally don't look at it as a rule but most people, most experts seem to agree upon.  The weekly mileage shouldn't exceed more than 10% of the previous week.  We may have had to, depending on the situation like I'd explained, but we tried to keep it within reason.  I just checked your situation (I used the educated guess) and I believe you're actually using the most reasonable approach--you're already running 2 hours (right?) and your starting point is right around 55 miles per week and you're using a 24-week plan (right?).  In this situation, you'll be adding not even 5% per week and you'll be reaching 70 at the end of 10-week Conditioning Phase.  So far most feedback we have received on Conditioning is that it starts out so conservatively and many feel it's too easy (there had been a few who felt a bit intimidated with the starting point which really shouldn't...) but the progress is so gradual and, without really consciously knowing, your mileage and pace would pick up.  One guy actually said that this was the first time he got up to 100 miles a week without any struggle or sore legs.

                       

                      Definitely keep us posted though.  I want to develop a training plan that actually works based on sound theory and practical experience.

                        In the financial world, the 3 T's apply: Timing, timing and timing.

                         

                        I have really been looking forward to start the Running-wizard program on 2. December with a count-down of 24 weeks to my marathon. Running 2 hours at a comfortable pace shouldn't be a big deal. Being unable to have a morning run yesterday, I decided to go for an evening run. The only problem was the weather. It had been snowing in the morning, the snow had thawn a bit and in the evening it was freezing again. So the roads were absolutely horrible being icy and very slippery. So after 14 km my calves were having a rotten time because I was afraid of stumbling all the time. Decided to do most of the remaining mileage on a treadmill but this was not either very nice because the calves were sore. Why the snow just had to invade Denmark the same day as my marathon program started I really don't know.

                         

                        Unfortunately, the weather forecast predicts at least 6 days with snow every day. It is definitely OK with snow weather but when you have some thaw it gets horribly slippery why the treadmill seems to be the major player for at least another week. For the trips outdoors in the near future, I will not be using my GPS equipment as I'll just get annoyed with a pace which is too slow; Just pressing myself too hard to keep a decent pace is not the way to have a balanced program!

                        Arthur was a Danish national coach back in late 1960s and early 1970s.  I remember him telling me about how the snow melts during the day and freezes at night.  He said, in Finland, it's too damn cold that the snow doesn't melt (as in MN!) and the footing won't be as bad in the morning.  

                         

                        Be careful with treadmill running.  I don't trust the pace on treadmill--some may not be well-calbrated and, either way, I personally don't like treadmill running and I just cannot duplicate the same pace as I can on the open road.  So I don't go by treadmill pace reading.  I feel it's so much better to go with target heart rate when running on treadmill than actual pace.  Of course, we never know about HR either.  In such case, RPE should work best.  Go by how you feel.  It's only a guide, but we provide all that.


                        Hungry

                          Bob:

                           

                          ... I just checked your situation (I used the educated guess) and I believe you're actually using the most reasonable approach--you're already running 2 hours (right?) and your starting point is right around 55 miles per week and you're using a 24-week plan (right?).  In this situation, you'll be adding not even 5% per week and you'll be reaching 70 at the end of 10-week Conditioning Phase.  So far most feedback we have received on Conditioning is that it starts out so conservatively and many feel it's too easy (there had been a few who felt a bit intimidated with the starting point which really shouldn't...) but the progress is so gradual and, without really consciously knowing, your mileage and pace would pick up.  One guy actually said that this was the first time he got up to 100 miles a week without any struggle or sore legs.

                           

                          Definitely keep us posted though.  I want to develop a training plan that actually works based on sound theory and practical experience.

                           

                          Nobby,

                          Correct and correct. I ran 2 hours very comfortably on Sunday (13.7 miles -- Wayzata, Lake Minnetonka, Luce Line trail, if you know the area). I ran 46 miles last week, and plan to increase that by just 1-2 miles a week so that I'll be up to 55 miles by the start of the 24 week plan (January 6th).  70 still sounds like a big number to me, but the build-up is indeed very gradual. I'll keep you posted.

                           

                          Thanks again!

                           

                          And "Hello" Burnt Toast (fellow Minnesotan, runner, Engineer, mid-40's guy named Robert, ... )

                            Nobby, thanks for your comment. I also far prefer to run outdoors and not on a treadmill. However, for me it is a great alternative with the treadmill. Yesterday, I did some fartlek on the treadmill and nothing can be more counter-intuitive than doing this workout there. The treadmill I use is in a weightlifting gym and it is always far too warm in the room, so for me it is much tougher running on this treadmill than outdoors.

                             

                            Today, I will be doing an aerobic run of 1.5 hours outdoors but it will be cut into two pieces as my daughter and I, in general, run on Wednesdays which is lovely.

                             

                            As I see it, the plan will turn you into an aerobic monster which is quite nice if you are chasing a new PR Wink

                              Excited about joing the user group for everyone using a Running-Wizard plan. I have been running for a little over two years now with Jack Daniel's Running Formula as my running Bible. I ran my first marathon last spring but his plan was so confusing, I ended up just basically running on my own with long runs on the weekend, I ran four runs twenty miles or more....huge mistake! I was exhausted by the time it came for race day and absolutely bonked the last 10K. I have been focusing on speed since that marathon and have turned in some great (for me) 8K and 15K times. I have decided to run the Columbus marathon in October 2013, but I'm not sure what to do until I start a training plan (going to use the running wizard plan, but haven't signed up for it yet). I know I need to start training about 24 weeks ahead, which is May I believe....so what kind of running should I work on through the winter/early spring?  I run long with a friend on the weekends, anywhere from 10 to 14 miles right now, with my mileage typically in the mid thirties for the week

                               

                              thanks for any advice and I'll hopefully see  alot of you in the group!

                                Excited about joing the user group for everyone using a Running-Wizard plan. I have been running for a little over two years now with Jack Daniel's Running Formula as my running Bible. I ran my first marathon last spring but his plan was so confusing, I ended up just basically running on my own with long runs on the weekend, I ran four runs twenty miles or more....huge mistake! I was exhausted by the time it came for race day and absolutely bonked the last 10K. I have been focusing on speed since that marathon and have turned in some great (for me) 8K and 15K times. I have decided to run the Columbus marathon in October 2013, but I'm not sure what to do until I start a training plan (going to use the running wizard plan, but haven't signed up for it yet). I know I need to start training about 24 weeks ahead, which is May I believe....so what kind of running should I work on through the winter/early spring?  I run long with a friend on the weekends, anywhere from 10 to 14 miles right now, with my mileage typically in the mid thirties for the week

                                 

                                thanks for any advice and I'll hopefully see  alot of you in the group!

                                Christi:

                                 

                                I saw this post earlier and, geez, lately recent topics move around so quickly!!  Been real hectic and behind with a lot of things...

                                 

                                My 2 cents to your situation is that; if you have that much time, it would be so much better off for you if you go through one cycle of Running Wizard--and personally I would suggest a 5k plan--before you start a marathon plan.  If your marathon is in October, you should be able to shoot for a 5k race sometime in April and then start a marathon plan and should be able to squeeze 20-22 weeks???  

                                 

                                I have a tendency to lurk around, checking out some interesting topics or comments and move on...  I saw somewhere, and can't even remember what the topic was about, someone posted the link to Greg McMillan's article about "backward pyramid".  Majority of people don't understand what that really meant.  At best, people think of it as starting from speed training/intervals first and increase the mileage which IS actually backwards.  Just so you know, Greg is a dear friend of mine and we communicate all the time.  I can't remember exactly when he wrote that article but he wrote that article probably before he fully understood Lydiard principles (I believe it was written in 2005 or 2006).  I was the one who hooked him up with Arthur on his last tour in 2004 where he spent majority of his days driving him around in TX where he used to live.  Prior to that, he worked for Discover USA (as opposed to Discover Kenya) program by Fila and worked under Dr. Rosa.  That article was based on what he learnt from Dr. Rosa and how he coached Kenyan runners.  Since then, his training/coaching philosophy had switched more toward that of Lydiard.  He gave a talk in North Carolina a few years back and I believe the DVD from that clinic is available at his website.  He gave me a draft disc for that and his training McMillan Elite team is pretty much straight forward from Lydiard training now which, of course, Running Wizard is based on.  What the article he wrote means is that it would pay you to work on developing faster running first--not so much doing lots of sprints or intervals like some people seem to see but to bring 3k or 5k time down, THEN start the marathon build-up.  What this means is that your overall fitness is better to begin with, you are no longer plodding on the long run, you'll be actually running and running at fairly good clip and staying aerobic...so, within, say, 2:30 of the long run, you'll be running 16 miles instead of 13.  As simple as that.  Although the basic principles of Running Wizard 5k plan and Running Wizard marathon plan are the same, 5k plan IS slightly geared toward speed development.  If you have time, if you go through that once first, you'll be so much better equipped to get the best out of the marathon plan.

                                 

                                Just to show off a bit, in that DVD, Greg listed 5 people who influenced his coaching career.  He included me in the list.  I feel very flattered but, it's not so much that I've influenced him but we really learn from each other.  We always bounce ideas back and forth.  I believe he's known to advocate no energy gel/drink during the long run; I remember way back (I think it was like 2005 or 2006) when we were talking on the phone about some of the ideas in Keith Livingston's Healthy Intelligent Training (we both contributed).  He had an idea about going slower in the long run and we were talking about the energy system and that's when this idea, in theory, popped out.  We both liked the idea and later Lorraine had verified it and liked it so she had promoted it since as well.

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