Why the Kenyans are so fast (Read 691 times)


Feeling the growl again

    Part of me appreciates the self-regulation and free reign here.  Part of me would like to see the ban hammer swing and eliminate the quagmire which affects about a quarter to a third of the threads on the most-recent section.

    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

     

    sport jester


    Biomimeticist

      So lets get this straight...

       

      I'm supposed to be civil, however the barrage of ridiculous pictures posted gets no mention at all???

       

      Oh please.

       

      Funny that people state they're here to learn how to run faster, but don't want to change how they run...

      Experts said the world is flat

      Experts said that man would never fly

      Experts said we'd never go to the moon

       

      Name me one of those "experts"...

       

      History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong


      Feeling the growl again

        So lets get this straight...

         

        I'm supposed to be civil, however the barrage of ridiculous pictures posted gets no mention at all???

         

         

        You have stated multiple times that you are not here to engage with this community, but to use it to entertain yourself.  You post nothing but insults.  One who treats others uniformly poorly is in a poor position to complain how they are treated.

        "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

         

        sport jester


        Biomimeticist

           

          You have stated multiple times that you are not here to engage with this community, but to use it to entertain yourself.  You post nothing but insults.  One who treats others uniformly poorly is in a poor position to complain how they are treated.

           

          I said I don't write it for the regular posters, since I well know they hate my guts. These forums are no different than radio talk shows. Only 1% of the listeners will call in and no different for this forum only a small number of those who are reading this thread will participate.

           

          Right now this thread has been read 617 times. Since there aren't 617 different posters here, more people are simply reading without making a comment on them. That is the audience I specifically I write for. And its for them I write with comments they tell me are pretty funny to read.

           

          What you as a regular poster here writes, doesn't concern me at all because I already know what you think of me. But to get rid of me in any way, one best start with quoting science to do so.

           

          Unlike you, I'm well cognizant that the "running universe", however doesn't exactly equate to a legitimate reference in any reasonable debate...

           

          Look at the pattern... people post questions and I answer them legitimately and with a list of journal published studies which back up my statements. Its only after a legitimate dialogue with the original poster that the expected distraction  begins by the regulars. If people want to debate science, then I'm more than willing to be civil.

           

          However I have yet to meet anyone with an actual PhD in either biomechanics, kinesiology, or exercise physiology, tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I have also yet to meet a critic who has the same education as my supporters. Which is why I have Navy SEALs who write that my teaching is legitimate.

           

          In contrast to my references of legitimacy, I'm still waiting for anyone to post a similar reference for themselves in any training debate.

           

          A three year subscription to any fitness magazine doesn't qualify anyone to think they're educated, which is the first mistake the regular posters here make.

           

          I well recognize that many regulars here despise the fact that I don't barf what Runner's World Magazine or any other running coach preaches, however I'm still waiting for the science which could shut me up to be posted.

           

          I prefer to let the reader decide if what I write makes sense or not. Their private comments tell me it does...

          Experts said the world is flat

          Experts said that man would never fly

          Experts said we'd never go to the moon

           

          Name me one of those "experts"...

           

          History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong


          Feeling the growl again

            Not at all, I'm fully self educated. that's why I've done what institutionally instructed people can't...

             

            There's a reason colleges and mental hospitals are both called institutions... You'd have to crazy to be in either place...

             

            .

            .

            .

             

            However I have yet to meet anyone with an actual PhD in either biomechanics, kinesiology, or exercise physiology, tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

             

            You want an actual PhD to tell you you're wrong...yet you have no formal education yourself...and discredit those who do.  And you wonder why you're ridiculed.

             

            This has been going on for a decade or so on this site and others, and in that time you haven't produced a single person showing the 20% improvement you claim is easy.  I must say this particular round is this first time in recent memory that differentiates itself.  Much more hostility and desperation from you.  Have fun entertaining yourself, I think the reality is something more sad than that.

            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

             

               

              Look at the pattern... people post questions and I answer them legitimately and with a list of journal published studies which back up my statements. Its only after a legitimate dialogue with the original poster that the expected distraction  begins by the regulars. If people want to debate science, then I'm more than willing to be civil.

               

              However I have yet to meet anyone with an actual PhD in either biomechanics, kinesiology, or exercise physiology, tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I have also yet to meet a critic who has the same education as my supporters. Which is why I have Navy SEALs who write that my teaching is legitimate.

               

              I don't have a PhD but I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering and I want to debate science.  Specifically my previous post on tiger beetle scaling.  I presented my critique of the methodology used to determine that a human-sized tiger beetle could run 200MPH and it was glossed over.

               

              A lot of your arguments hinge on the fact that animals are more efficient than we are based on what I believe to be a faulty measure.  Seems like a point you would want to address or else your credibility might be at risk with all of the people reading.


              I'm back!

                 I don't have a PhD but I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering and I want to debate science.  Specifically my previous post on tiger beetle scaling.  I presented my critique of the methodology used to determine that a human-sized tiger beetle could run 200MPH and it was glossed over.

                 

                Another Ph.D. here saying that is ridiculous. As mentioned, yeah, square-cube law and all that.

                GC100k


                   Another Ph.D. here saying that is ridiculous. As mentioned, yeah, square-cube law and all that.

                   

                  Ditto. I have a PhD in engineering and I teach and do research.  In fluids, we use the word "similitude" to talk about proper scaling up.  But don't expect SJ to bother even googling a word before he sticks his foot in his mouth.  He thought "anteroposterior" and "mediolateral" referred to vertical impact forces:


                  posted by GC100k: 11/19/2013 at 9:29 PM

                  I bolded the parts of the sentence you left out

                  Quote from sport jester on 11/19/2013 at 6:45 PM:

                  The anteroposterior peak force and mediolateral

                  "peak-to-peak force increased about 2 times with speed in walking and about 2-4 times in running" 

                  (the absolute values were on average about 10 times smaller than the vertical)

                  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2782094

                   

                  Since the above quote is from the study you linked in your original response, I suggest you actually read what you post.

                  Oh wait, that would require intelligence....

                   

                  You said the impact forces were 2 x bodyweight for walking and 4 x bodyweight for running.  The sentence you just partially quoted says the front-to-back and sideways forces vary by factors of 2 to 4 as you change speeds but are about one-tenth of what the vertical forces are.  These forces have nothing to do with the impact forces and are in any case an order of magnitude smaller.  So are you saying these are the impact forces you were talking about (which would make no sense)?  If so, then you're not off by a factor of 2 but are off by a factor of 20.

                    Has anyone else noticed the similarity between sportjester's kitty running and the Prancersise lady?  Is she his first disciple?

                     

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-50GjySwew

                     

                    there's some form of biomimicry going on in that vid, more related to a camel's anatomy than a horse's.

                    My leg won't stop mooing.

                     

                    i think i've got a calf injury.

                    sport jester


                    Biomimeticist

                       

                      I don't have a PhD but I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering and I want to debate science.  Specifically my previous post on tiger beetle scaling.  I presented my critique of the methodology used to determine that a human-sized tiger beetle could run 200MPH and it was glossed over.

                       

                      A lot of your arguments hinge on the fact that animals are more efficient than we are based on what I believe to be a faulty measure.  Seems like a point you would want to address or else your credibility might be at risk with all of the people reading.

                       

                      I'm sure critiquing the scaling applications of people who study them isn't hard to do, but then again, you don't study them for a professional specialty either.... So what you're claiming is that you know more about insects than actual Entomologists...

                       

                      How accurate it is, I'm not here to criticize the author's math or speculation. However on a scale in contrast to other insects, the species is still wickedly fast in comparison, and therefore biomechanic lessons of speed can be extrapolated if they exist.

                       

                      Oh, and if you're going to claim my thesis that the worlds best human athletes, have learned from the fastest animals around them is a "faulty measure", then what do you specifically fault for such perspective?

                       

                      Especially since its true that others are pursuing to establish the exact same connection. In fact I can even buy textbooks proclaiming no different than I do in print.

                      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14763140508522866#.UpE1npnTnbg

                       

                      Let alone what humans can learn from cheetahs (even though they're completely wrong).

                      http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/what-runners-can-learn-from-cheetahs/?ref=health&_r=0

                       

                      Gait differences between multiple quadrupeds

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22723482

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18854295

                       

                      Human ostrich comparisons

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21030429

                      http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/8/i.1.full?etoc

                       

                      If the legal definition of insane delusions is holding beliefs which "imagines facts to exist", then by definition, there are a lot of other people imagining the exact same relationship that I do.

                       

                      That they aren't smart enough to figure out how such study can benefit a human athlete is their problem, not mine...

                      Experts said the world is flat

                      Experts said that man would never fly

                      Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                       

                      Name me one of those "experts"...

                       

                      History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                        SJ,

                         

                        1. What evidence do you have to prove that current day elite marathoners are not already running at peak efficiency?

                        2. If you do something long enough and/or train for it, logically, it wont be surprising if you became efficient at it. So for how long had the kenyan women in the test been carrying that load before the test? Its like measuring Haile Gebreselassie's energy expenditure when he is running with school books in his left hand and then finding out that his energy expenditure doing that is 20% lesser than other humans who tried doing the same thing - muscle memory in theory, should account for something right?

                         

                        And the gaping hole if there was ever on SJ, from the very gospel truth web article that you seem to advocate from here, is that the same doctor who did the study went on to say, and i quote him from this very article (with reference to the kenyan women wasting lesser energy when carrying loads on their heads) : "....Interestingly, they apply this trick only when they are carrying things on their heads. When they walk unloaded, Dr. Heglund found, they waste as much energy as all other walkers. It is only as they begin to balance heavy loads on their heads that they change their steps..."

                        I dont sweat. I ooze liquid awesome.

                        sport jester


                        Biomimeticist

                          SJ,

                           

                          1. What evidence do you have to prove that current day elite marathoners are not already running at peak efficiency?

                          2. If you do something long enough and/or train for it, logically, it wont be surprising if you became efficient at it. So for how long had the kenyan women in the test been carrying that load before the test? Its like measuring Haile Gebreselassie's energy expenditure when he is running with school books in his left hand and then finding out that his energy expenditure doing that is 20% lesser than other humans who tried doing the same thing - muscle memory in theory, should account for something right?

                           

                          And the gaping hole if there was ever on SJ, from the very gospel truth web article that you seem to advocate from here, is that the same doctor who did the study went on to say, and i quote him from this very article (with reference to the kenyan women wasting lesser energy when carrying loads on their heads) : "....Interestingly, they apply this trick only when they are carrying things on their heads. When they walk unloaded, Dr. Heglund found, they waste as much energy as all other walkers. It is only as they begin to balance heavy loads on their heads that they change their steps..."

                          Its in measuring how much energy they waste to move forward, which is a culmination of how high they push themselves up with each step (vertical displacement), how far laterally they push themselves with each step, and how long it takes them to correct themselves given its biologically impossible for any human to walk in a straight line, known as your drift rate.

                          http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/16/sports/on-your-own-runner-s-shortest-path-straight-line.html?src=pm

                           

                          Science also says that for every 20 seconds you run, you add about five feet in lateral drift to your running. How quickly you can identify your drift and correct for it is the science I work with.

                           

                          I call it the light bulb test. That I can put a marker on the top of your head as you run and with a video camera and computer software extrapolate how far your body actually moves in physical displacement in ratio to forward movement. With that perspective, your body travels in a figure eight pattern as you run. How big that figure eight is determines how much energy you waste pushing your body in every direction but forward.

                           

                          The elite runners travel about 30-32 miles per marathon race. Recreational runners have run 36-39 miles when all is said and done. Where anyone is on that scale determines how efficient they run and in the end how much time it takes for them to cross a finish line.

                           

                          Increasing anyone's speed isn't a matter of running faster, but reducing the size of your figure eight in forward motion. Reduce it by 20% and running 20% faster is easy.

                           

                          You're right, that the women of the story walk no different than you do without the weight. But the question still stands; how did they learn it when no expert of running anywhere in the world (except me) can explain it?

                           

                          Let alone how do their daughters learn it to follow their mothers into the desert with them if the women can't explain it or teach it.

                           

                          Why would it seem illogical for the men to learn the skill as well and apply it to dominating distance running events, especially since they've done so since the 1980's, and regardless to the millions spent in coaching and athletic sponsorship still can' t beat them?

                          Experts said the world is flat

                          Experts said that man would never fly

                          Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                           

                          Name me one of those "experts"...

                           

                          History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                          zonykel


                             

                            The elite runners travel about 30-32 miles per marathon race. Recreational runners have run 36-39 miles when all is said and done. Where anyone is on that scale determines how efficient they run and in the end how much time it takes for them to cross a finish line.

                             

                            Have you actually measured that?

                            sport jester


                            Biomimeticist

                              Have you actually measured that?

                               

                              Any elite level biomechanics lab can do the measurements for you. What they can't do is teach you how to reduce your individual figure eight measurements.

                               

                              Which is why anybody thinking Dr. Daniel Lieberman knows anything about running is the victim of a complete con job. His physical displacement (1:45 in the video) I as he runs is pathetic...

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICNaSah5bAs

                              Experts said the world is flat

                              Experts said that man would never fly

                              Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                               

                              Name me one of those "experts"...

                               

                              History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                              GC100k


                                 Quote from zonykel on 11/23/2013 at 7:48 PM:

                                Have you actually measured that?

                                 

                                Any elite level biomechanics lab can do the measurements for you. What they can't do is teach you how to reduce your individual figure eight measurements.

                                 

                                That would be a 'no'.

                                 

                                SJ claims to have been at this for 33 years and he has never produced one bit of science, not a single data set, not one figure or diagram or equation, nada, zilch, bupkis.  Just many many many words.  Lots of links and a few references to folks who have been polite to him.

                                 

                                His radical idea is that people should walk or run inline and bounce less, which is the way many people run without being told, but he has to make up ridiculous numbers, insult pretty much everyone else on the planet. and invoke the animal mimicry stuff to make it sound like a thing.

                                 

                                I admit that it's been fun to have my first Sport Jester experience in this thread, but there is never going to be any resolution.  He will continue to contradict himself, to make no sense, and to be elusive and evasive about these brilliant explanations he supposedly has.  Eventually I'll get tired of chasing in circles, but his endurance is admirable.