RunningAHEAD - Topic: Transitioning from endurance/LT to interval training

Mr Inertia

Suspect Zero

posted: 3/13/2008 at 11:48 AM

I'm on week 10 of a schedule based largely on Pfitzingers 18/55 plan. This week was my last week of tempo training. Next week is bascially a longer (14 mile) medium/long run and a long run with a big chunk of M pace miles (15 w/12 at M pace). The rest, obviously is easy mileage. The following week begins race preparation, basically interval training. As this mesocycle closes, I'm not confident that my LT training is where it should be. I made some errors early on and haven't gotten the amount of LT training that I would like. This morning's 8 mile run with 4.5 at T was the biggest tempo run I've done. I was considering extending the time that I spend of LT training for 2 more weeks and cut back a bit on the race preparation. I would like to be doing something along the lines of 11 miles with 6-7 at T and be able to run relaxed the last few miles and think I can get pretty close to that with two more weeks. Or would it be better to move on to the next mesocycle and let the cards fall where they may? Side note: If you take a look at my log, last week's mileage might be misleading. I missed my long run due to weather. This week I'll be in the upper 40s low 50s.

JimHowe

posted: 3/13/2008 at 11:55 AM

I say the LT is much more important than hard intervals, especially of you are training for longer races. Milk that LT for all it's worth. Of course the long runs are also critical.

Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33

Jeff

Why is it sideways?

posted: 3/13/2008 at 12:07 PM

Quote from JimHowe on 3/13/2008 at 11:55 AM:

I say the LT is much more important than hard intervals, especially of you are training for longer races. Milk that LT for all it's worth. Of course the long runs are also critical.

Agreed.

Marcus L S

The Greatest of All Time

posted: 3/13/2008 at 12:19 PM

I don't know who Pfitzinger is or what a 'mesocycle' is either. But if you're training for long races, LT runs will yield greater return than intervals. In my experience doing LT training (running, swimming, and cycling) helped raise my LT and in turn allowed me to race faster.

all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.

jEfFgObLuE

I've got a fever...

posted: 3/13/2008 at 12:35 PM

Well actually, some would argue that intervals might do more to raise your LT (or more properly, your running velocity at lactate threshold RVLT) than traditional LT running. Running at T-pace (which is by definition the point above which blood lactate levels begin to climb) doesn't flood your muscles with nearly as much lactate as does faster running. The higher lactate levels associated with faster paces (say 10k or faster) allow your body's lactate transport mechanisms, particularly the protein MCT1, to become more adept at shuttling excess lactate back into the cycle as a potential energy source. Okay, breathe easy. While the above is technically true (even the MCT1 part), I think a marathoner benefits more from longer sustained runs. You should extend your LT training by a few more weeks. I do have a serious question. You say you are running 4.5 miles at T-pace, and plan to run some 6-7 mile runs at T-pace. I have to ask, how fast is your T-pace? Since you seem to be a Daniels devotee, are you using his T-pace (which is about 10~15 seconds slower than 10k pace)? 6-7 miles at nearly 10k pace is a heck of a workout. Not trying to discourage it, just curious.

On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

Bonkin

posted: 3/13/2008 at 12:52 PM

Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/13/2008 at 12:35 PM:

I do have a serious question. You say you are running 4.5 miles at T-pace, and plan to run some 6-7 mile runs at T-pace. I have to ask, how fast is your T-pace? Since you seem to be a Daniels devotee, are you using his T-pace (which is about 10~15 seconds slower than 10k pace)? 6-7 miles at nearly 10k pace is a heck of a workout. Not trying to discourage it, just curious.

He's actually using a Pfitz based plan and his 55 mpw plans include tempo runs (run at 15K to HM pace) for distances progressing from 4 to 7 miles. He suggests HM pace for faster runners (read this as mikeymike, jeff, or blaine type fast) and 15K pace for slower runners (all of the rest of us).

When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

jEfFgObLuE

I've got a fever...

posted: 3/13/2008 at 12:56 PM

Quote from Bonkin on 3/13/2008 at 12:52 PM:

He suggests HM pace for faster runners (read this as mikeymike, jeff, or blaine type fast) and 15K pace for slower runners (all of the rest of us).

Wouldn't that be the other way around (faster people at 15k pace, slower at HM pace?).

On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

mn_Peter

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:08 PM

Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/13/2008 at 12:56 PM:

Wouldn't that be the other way around (faster people at 15k pace, slower at HM pace?).

nope ... i think it's so we all finish in about an hour (give or take) ... although at about the 6.5mi mark of a LT run, I wish it was the other way around Big grin

Bonkin

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:09 PM

Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/13/2008 at 12:56 PM:

Wouldn't that be the other way around (faster people at 15k pace, slower at HM pace?).

No. His thought is that tempo pace should be run at a pace that you can run for about one hour. The fast folks can get a half done in close to an hour.

When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

Bonkin

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:10 PM

Quote from mn_Peter on 3/13/2008 at 1:08 PM:

although at about the 6.5mi mark of a LT run, I wish it was the other way around

I agree with this.

When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

Marcus L S

The Greatest of All Time

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:18 PM

Not attempting to hijack...but how do the rest of you questimate your LT pace? I doubt any of us do blood draws while running to accurately check so I am curious. I may have done this wrong, but I always figured my LT pace was pretty close to 5K race pace. These days I do it by heartrate. My max is about 195 and when I hit low 180's I know I am in the ballpark. And as exptected my HR while running 5K race pace is low 180's.

all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be

Obesity is a disease. Yes, a disease where nothing tastes bad...except salads.

Bonkin

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:24 PM

Quote from Marcus L S on 3/13/2008 at 1:18 PM:

Not attempting to hijack...but how do the rest of you questimate your LT pace? I doubt any of us do blood draws while running to accurately check so I am curious. I may have done this wrong, but I always figured my LT pace was pretty close to 5K race pace. These days I do it by heartrate. My max is about 195 and when I hit low 180's I know I am in the ballpark. And as exptected my HR while running 5K race pace is low 180's.

I look up my predicted 15K pace with the McMillan calculator and use his tempo pace range as a goal. After a PR race - I see if it changes anything and start trying to move my pace down to the new range.

When it’s all said and done, will you have said more than you’ve done?

Scout7

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:31 PM

LT pace is about the pace you can hold for one hour. 5k pace is above LT pace. Best way to determine your Lactate Threshold HR is to do a time trial on a track. Warm up, then run for 10 minutes. Start recording, and run for another 20 minutes. Try to maintain the same pace. Your LTHR is the avearge HR at the end of the 20 minutes.

jEfFgObLuE

I've got a fever...

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:31 PM

Quote from Marcus L S on 3/13/2008 at 1:18 PM:

Not attempting to hijack...but how do the rest of you questimate your LT pace? I doubt any of us do blood draws while running to accurately check so I am curious. I may have done this wrong, but I always figured my LT pace was pretty close to 5K race pace. These days I do it by heartrate. My max is about 195 and when I hit low 180's I know I am in the ballpark. And as exptected my HR while running 5K race pace is low 180's.

Daniels places threshold place at 88-92% of MaxHr. This corresponds to 10-15 sec slower than 10k pace. The 10-15 sec slower than 10k pace is pretty well documented by others besides Daniels.

On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office. But you will wish that you'd spent more time running. Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

Mr Inertia

Suspect Zero

posted: 3/13/2008 at 1:32 PM

Quote from jEfFgObLuE on 3/13/2008 at 12:35 PM:

I do have a serious question. You say you are running 4.5 miles at T-pace, and plan to run some 6-7 mile runs at T-pace. I have to ask, how fast is your T-pace? Since you seem to be a Daniels devotee, are you using his T-pace (which is about 10~15 seconds slower than 10k pace)? 6-7 miles at nearly 10k pace is a heck of a workout. Not trying to discourage it, just curious.

When the workout gets longer, I use his chart as a guidline (not doing so earlier was one of the mistakes of which I spoke) to slow up a bit. Right now my VDOT is probably 38, maybe 39 (haven't raced in a while). This morning's plan was to do 9+ with 6 at T so I was running just over a 9:00 pace, like a 9:05 or so. I cut it short because my legs were starting to feel a bit beat up. I've got a 20 miler this weekend and I might try and do it progressively, so I thought I'd save the legs for that. I've got a HM in 3 weeks. I'm guessing I'll be able to race that right around a 9:00-9:10 pace depending on how things go.

Transitioning from endurance/LT to interval training (Read 816 times)