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I seem to need help staying strong in the half (Read 323 times)

dallison


registered pw

    Last year i ran the Harrisburg half in 1:35:21. The few weeks before i had some groin pain that forced me to take a bit of time off and then i ran the half. Somewhere around mile 3-5 i started to feel it last year and then i had back aches and what not. I finished strong but averaged a 7:16 mile.

     

    This year i ran a 10 miler in April on the same course. I ran a 6:56 mile and felt real strong. the last three miles were into the wind and i would have been quicker.

     

    This year i had the same groin pain and had to limit my mileage in august and last week. I had x-rays on Sat and am waiting for results. I have a script for PT so i will want to find a running PT.

     

    I ran todays' race in 1:34:43,, a 7:14 mile, a drop of :38 seconds. improvement? yes. how did i feel? terrible.

     

    The first two miles were 6:33 and 36. Mile three i slowed to a more comfortable 7:00.

     

    Somewhere around 5=7 i started to slow down and really felt like crap. I had no oomph and didn't seem to recover. i couldn't wait until each mile was over. I slowed to a 7:20-:48 during the last 5 miles.

     

    I had left 3-4 minutes on the table and ran just to finish.

     

    I am planning on running a full in Nov but the way i felt today, i'm not going to have the desire to do it.

     

    Granted i did better than last year and any improvement is great but what can i do different?

     

    My diet isn't bad at all as i eat a lot of fruits and veggies along with a good amount of chicken and red meat. I try to run about 33-42 mpw with most being 8:30-9:30 with some tempo runs.

    2013 goals:

    sub 19 5k

    sub 1:30 half

    3:20 marathon on second try


    MoBramExam

      Could be lots of things, but here are a couple of thoughts:

       

      (1) 7:00 for a HM is 1:31:45.  Maybe you were fit enough to run that time, maybe not.  Either way, going out with a couple of 6:3Xs did not help your chances.  (2) May have been warmer / more humid today than your April race and weather affected your performance.

       

      Between now and November is not a lot of time.  Classic tempo runs (30:00-40:00 minutes) and MP tempo runs (40:00-60:00 minutes) are valuable tools in learning pacing and fixing fades.

       




      Mmmmm...beer

        After my first half, some experienced folks told me to get very comfortable running 15 miles, so I ran over two dozen 15 milers before my PR half.  I think that really helped me hold my pace through the whole race.

        -Dave

        My running blog

        2014 Goals | sub-19 5k done! | sub-40 10k done! | BQ done! | sub-3 M

          Many factors could contribute to this and you didn't provide too much infor on what your trianing looks like, however,I would agree that you are going out WAY to fast if you ran the first few miles in the 6:3X range.   The first 2-3 miles should be slower than your overall pace goal.  Then for miles 3-6 start to gradually increase pace, so that you have plenty in the tank for the last 7 miles.

           

          Again, many things can be done to improve your time, but slowing down quite a bit early on will significantly improve your time, which is where you gave away all of those minutes at the end.   By going out at even 7:20 pace you would have really helped yourself - that is only 5 seconds per mile off of your pace where you run your 1:35:21.   Do that for 3 miles and you can easily make up that and few extra seconds by the time you hit mile 6.  I bet you will have plenty left in the tank for the last 7 at that where you could probably hold a 6:50 pace or so (this is a guess given the info you have provided), putting you in position to run around 1:32:00, which is a pretty good improvement (3+ minutes) for a 1/2 marathon distance.

           

          It's really hard to hold back those first 3 miles as you will feel like you are crawling (not to mention your getting passed by everybody, but running a negative split is truly the best way to run your races.   If you look at every world record in all distances over  1500M, you'll notice they ALL contain a negative split.   I used to buy into the theory of banking time early, but this single fact has me convinced that you have to start slow.   (Barring a REALLY unusual course or winds etc.)   Good job on the PR.   You mentined that you are lacking motiavation - Here's how I would be motivate myself - You PR'd, and you ran the race wrong by going out too fast,   Think how much more you'll improve on your next race when you pace it properly.   Good luck!

          dallison


          registered pw

            I definitely don't have that many 15+ miles runs in for the year. I would like to but i'm not sure why i don't have that many in.

             

            After my first half, some experienced folks told me to get very comfortable running 15 miles, so I ran over two dozen 15 milers before my PR half.  I think that really helped me hold my pace through the whole race.

            2013 goals:

            sub 19 5k

            sub 1:30 half

            3:20 marathon on second try

            dallison


            registered pw

              I do see you guys' point with starting out a bit slower. That pace is about 20 seconds slower than my 5k pace. The pace really feels easy but it's probably not easy enough. I have been running consistent 120-140 mile months. The exception was August, where my groin area seems to get overworked this time of year.

               

              I went from 33-41 mpw to 21.3 last week, 27.6, 7.9 and then 33.4 the week before that. That could have had an effect since i couldn't keep consistent and proper mileage.

              I run 4-5 days a week also. if you care to look at my log, that'll give you an idea of my workouts. Most are 8:30-9:30 depending on whatever. I don't do speed workouts and i don't do hills as much as i really want. Although there is almost always a good steep hill in my path.

               

              Many factors could contribute to this and you didn't provide too much infor on what your trianing looks like, however,I would agree that you are going out WAY to fast if you ran the first few miles in the 6:3X range.   The first 2-3 miles should be slower than your overall pace goal.  Then for miles 3-6 start to gradually increase pace, so that you have plenty in the tank for the last 7 miles.

               

               

              2013 goals:

              sub 19 5k

              sub 1:30 half

              3:20 marathon on second try

                 if you care to look at my log

                 

                Your log isn't currently showing as public.

                "Don't feel like running today...suck it up and run ...you're an athlete." (John Stanton, founder & owner of The Running Room)

                 

                Three half marathons later, I got a number. Half Fanatic #9292. :)

                dallison


                registered pw

                  whoops,it's public now.

                   

                  Your log isn't currently showing as public.

                  2013 goals:

                  sub 19 5k

                  sub 1:30 half

                  3:20 marathon on second try

                  RunAsics


                  Person of Interest

                    Interesting.  Your 5k and HM times roughly match what I could do on similar mileage.  I found more success (1:28) when I hit 30-40 mpw with 13-14 mile LRs.  Oddly 60-70 mpw for marathons did not get me faster in the HM but I did get faster in the 5k and 10k (low 18s and sub 38).  I think I just did not execute a good race plan.

                     

                    My fastest HM (1:23) was when I was doing 45-50 mpw with two speed work session per week (interval or fartlek + tempo) with the same 13-14 mile LR.  (MTA) I also got under 18 in the 5k with this training after 4 years stuck in the low 18s (and doing marathons).    If I had time to build back to 60-70 mpw with the specific HM training, I'm sure I'd be get close to sub 1:22.

                     

                    MTA - note that I have found I can pick it up for the last 5k when I have a balance between volume and speed work during training.

                    "Only a few more laps to go and then the action will begin, unless this is the action, which it is."
                    JimR


                      Too many gaps in that log.  You have the speed but cannot sustain it. Fill in the gaps with easy miles, the speed will still hurt but the you will be able to hold it.

                        Not enough miles.

                         

                        I recently (this spring) upped my weekly mileage to 50-60+ and am noticing a huge increase in my general stamina.

                        2014 Goals

                        Weight - 200 lbs (stuck around 211)

                        2000 miles (1700 as of September 10)

                        Stay healthy for Boston 2015

                        Marathon - 3:05 (St. George in October)

                        5k - 19:55 (19:43 July 4, 2014)

                         


                        MoBramExam

                          Too many gaps in that log.

                          This...and there is little continuity and structure to the workouts you are doing.  Often, your long run is 33% to 4X% of your weekly volume.  Your "Tempo" runs are run at what should be an easy effort for someone with your recent PRs.  The day-to-day runs do not always complement the previous run or set up the next.  In summary, you are doing a lot of running, but not much "training".

                           

                          Looking at your recent race times, they are very respectable.  You are probably at the point where there needs to be more purpose in your weekly miles to make further improvement.

                           

                          May want to do some reading and develop a solid plan, or even get with a coach if you prefer.

                           

                          Good Luck!

                           



                          dallison


                          registered pw

                            Thanks for checking things out! You all are correct, there is no real structure. It's go out and run some miles. I don't do hill or speed workouts at all. I at least have a decent base but not the meat and potatoes to keep the speed like you guys are saying.

                            I have always noticed during longer races like a 10k or half that the speed didn't stay with me past mile 4-6.

                            Right now i am going to follow hal higdons' marathon advanced plan right now. this has me running 6 days a week, up from 4-5 days.

                             

                            The dr called today to say the x-rays show a very slight case of arthritis. Now i need to see how i'm going to deal with this.

                            2013 goals:

                            sub 19 5k

                            sub 1:30 half

                            3:20 marathon on second try

                              Your easy runs are definitely easy. Most guys at your fitness are probably running something like 7:30-8:00 pace most of the time. Nothing necessarily wrong with this, and GOOD runners have had success with doing easy mileage very easy.

                               

                              Your tempo runs though...I don't know what is going on there. A guy in 19:30-20:00 shape would be looking at something like 6:40-7:00 pace for your "classic" 20 minute tempo run depending on how you are feeling, and maybe 10-15 s/mile slower if you are doing something a bit longer. What you are logging as "tempo"is still nothing more than an easy jog for a guy of your fitness.

                               

                              Basic summary I guess is that you are running alot, but not really doing much training or any workouts. This works fine for a while, especially when you are new, but at some point if you wanna run fast..,ou have to run fast. You literally hadn't even done anything at HMP coming into this race, aside from the occasional 5k. Your overall mileage is also very, very low. Almost nothing for a runner of your caliber, which makes it really hard to develop the endurance needed and that is clear from your PR progression where you have a 5:02 mile ("worth" mid to low 17's), then a 5k in 18:52, a 10k in 41 mid, and a half in 1:34. If you had strong endurance you would be looking at something more like 5:00, 17:15, 35:45, 1:20:00.

                               

                              In short, run more and introduce more actual training into your running. Do a little reading, or ask some of  the knowledgeable people around here for advice if you don't have any idea what to do as far as workouts go, but for a half marathon you are generally looking at decent mileage, some race pace work, and some occasional stuff at 5k-10k pace to keep the legs springy and make half pace not feel quite so fast, which sometimes happens if you do nothing but mileage at half pace or slower.

                               

                              It's also worth nothing that your pacing was pretty poor. Maybe you were doing different training when you ran 18:52, but coming into the race it seems like you were in something like 19:30 shape, and ran your first two miles at only a little bit slower than 5k pace, and faster than your 10k PR pace. That's a recipe for the wheels to come off, and can definitely contribute to a big fade.

                              They say golf is like life, but don't believe them. Golf is more complicated than that. "If I am still standing at the end of the race, hit me with a Board and knock me down, because that means I didn't run hard enough" If a lot of people gripped a knife and fork the way they do a golf club, they'd starve to death. "Don't fear moving slowly forward...fear standing still."

                              dallison


                              registered pw

                                ^ awesome info thanks. I will take this to heart and seek guidance. I know there is a sub 1:30 there, but it's just not surfacing.

                                2013 goals:

                                sub 19 5k

                                sub 1:30 half

                                3:20 marathon on second try

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