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winter base training questions (Read 253 times)

     

    My personal feelings are that it is better to focus on listening to your body than an external device working against some arbitrary heart rate thresholds.

     

    ah well I see your point. For me using a HRM though helped me to learn what my body was telling me. The thresholds aren't arbitrary either, just need to avoid generic formulas like the plague. Smile

     

    My issue with HR training is more that HR can be affected by more than just the current running intensity. It's still usable though and can teach you how to run slow enough for recovery runs etc. Smile

     

    But yeah I know some people can "feel out" all the right intensities without the help of HR training. I can now do that too without relying on help from a HRM, just as a beginner I couldn't. Smile


    Why is it sideways?

      NHLA


        I run 8 mile runs weekdays and 16 miles a day on weekends.  Mondays off.  If I get really sore two days off.

        I don't worry about speed work because I run in the mountains. Lots of 3-4 mile hills.

        Build your miles up to 50-80mpw. Two a days are a good way to build up miles.

        NikoRosa


        Funky Kicks 2019

          I treat winter the same way I treat the rest of the year.  I do slow down because I am wearing more clothes and heavier shoes (often with additional traction control devices strapped on).  But I consider the extra weight a bonus.  The first warm day in spring with lighter shoes and fewer layers...you feel like you are FLYING.

           

          Right now I am doing 60-65 miles per week at an 8:30-9:00 pace.  I run the same hills and before long they  are going to get slippery with snow and slush but again, I see that as an increase in the workout intensity since I am working so much harder even if I am slower.  I have never come out of winter feeling like I have lost speed.  As soon as the conditions improve, so do my times.

           

          And plus a million to the suggestion of snowshoe running!!!  It is ridiculously hard, especially if you are breaking trail.  I absolutely love it, even as I am heaving up a lung.  Last year I logged about 170 running snowshoe miles, and I was so sad to see the snow melt.  My longest run was 9 miles, most days it took all I had to run 7 miles.  Some days I would get so tired that I could barely lift my feet and then I would face plant  into the snow.  Perfect for your inner masochist.

          Leah, mother of dogs


          Latent Runner

            And plus a million to the suggestion of snowshoe running!!!  It is ridiculously hard, especially if you are breaking trail.  I absolutely love it, even as I am heaving up a lung.  Last year I logged about 170 running snowshoe miles, and I was so sad to see the snow melt.  My longest run was 9 miles, most days it took all I had to run 7 miles.  Some days I would get so tired that I could barely lift my feet and then I would face plant  into the snow.  Perfect for your inner masochist.

             

            Yeah, I did a 5K snowshoe race on a day when we had six inches of middle-weight snow, and yikes! it took me like an extra seven to eight minutes per mile compared to running.

            Fat old man PRs:

            • 1-mile (point to point, gravity assist): 5:50
            • 2-mile: 13:49
            • 5K (gravity assist last mile): 21:31
            • 5-Mile: 37:24
            • 10K (first 10K of my Half Marathon): 48:16
            • 10-Mile (first 10 miles of my Half Marathon): 1:17:40
            • Half Marathon: 1:42:13

              @Jeff:

              I recommend Summer Winter of the Caveman

               

              thanks I will be checking this out. Smile

               

               

              @NHLA:

              I run 8 mile runs weekdays and 16 miles a day on weekends.  Mondays off.  If I get really sore two days off.

              I don't worry about speed work because I run in the mountains. Lots of 3-4 mile hills.

              Build your miles up to 50-80mpw. Two a days are a good way to build up miles.

               

              haha, 80mpw, that'll be a while before I get there. Big grin

               

              I'm sure one should also be pretty fast before attempting 80mpw or it would take forever.

               

              do you do all your 8-16 miles at the same intensity (except for the uphills of course)?

               

               

               

              @NikoRosa:

              I treat winter the same way I treat the rest of the year.  I do slow down because I am wearing more clothes and heavier shoes (often with additional traction control devices strapped on).  But I consider the extra weight a bonus.  The first warm day in spring with lighter shoes and fewer layers...you feel like you are FLYING.

               

              Right now I am doing 60-65 miles per week at an 8:30-9:00 pace.  I run the same hills and before long they  are going to get slippery with snow and slush but again, I see that as an increase in the workout intensity since I am working so much harder even if I am slower.  I have never come out of winter feeling like I have lost speed.  As soon as the conditions improve, so do my times.

               

              And plus a million to the suggestion of snowshoe running!!!  It is ridiculously hard, especially if you are breaking trail.  I absolutely love it, even as I am heaving up a lung.  Last year I logged about 170 running snowshoe miles, and I was so sad to see the snow melt.  My longest run was 9 miles, most days it took all I had to run 7 miles.  Some days I would get so tired that I could barely lift my feet and then I would face plant  into the snow.  Perfect for your inner masochist.

               

              Haha sounds like fun!

               

              I don't know what you're doing differently from me though because for me it isn't the shoes and layers that gives me an issue. How often would you say you're doing these harder runs in the snow? Surely not everyday?

              Wing


              Joggaholic

                So, can you tell me this, what is the 5% that's not slow running that you do in winter in addition to 8:30-9:00 paced runs? Strides, tempos, hills? Anything specific about the structure of your winter training schedule? Thanks Wink

                 

                I run intervals on Monday with my running club, maybe 3 miles worth of intervals out of an average 60 mile week. It's more a social thing for me, I'm not disciplined enough to follow a strict plan or schedule on my own. I don't actually try to hit a certain pace, 8:30-9:00 in winter is just kind of how it turns out naturally. Sometimes I just like running fast during a random easy run because I felt like doing it (again, unplanned). This winter I may consciously try to add in a tempo run during the week, but that's probably as detailed as far as my running plan goes.

                 

                My normal routine: Monday = intervals, Weekend = long, the rest are easy miles (anywhere from 3 to 10 miles in each run), ~60mpw, 7 days a week. I've been slightly obsessed with base building this year so I had a lot of slow miles.

                  I'm sure one should also be pretty fast before attempting 80mpw or it would take forever.

                   

                  Not really all that much.  I think "pretty fast" guys would knock out that mileage and save maybe 10 minutes a day.  But 12 hrs/wk of mostly easy mileage will do tons for one's aerobic endurance.

                   

                  FWIW, I have seen huge improvements by just adding easy miles and running one tempo per week with no speedwork.  I'm a little slower than you (20:44 5k, 6:44/mi) and do 95% of my miles at 8:30-9:00, with recoveries at 9:30.  The other 5% are long tempos at 7:15-7:25.

                    @Wing:

                     I run intervals on Monday with my running club, maybe 3 miles worth of intervals out of an average 60 mile week. It's more a social thing for me, I'm not disciplined enough to follow a strict plan or schedule on my own. I don't actually try to hit a certain pace, 8:30-9:00 in winter is just kind of how it turns out naturally. Sometimes I just like running fast during a random easy run because I felt like doing it (again, unplanned). This winter I may consciously try to add in a tempo run during the week, but that's probably as detailed as far as my running plan goes.

                     

                    My normal routine: Monday = intervals, Weekend = long, the rest are easy miles (anywhere from 3 to 10 miles in each run), ~60mpw, 7 days a week. I've been slightly obsessed with base building this year so I had a lot of slow miles.

                     

                    Thanks for the info. Btw do you think you could do sub-20 just had bad races or something? Because I see that a lot of your 5K progression was done last winter but not much happened to your 5K times this year after winter. And I see you going slower in the second half of this year (though I didn't look too closely at your log). So I have a specific question again, last winter did you have those social intervals or just the random fast parts in easy runs?

                     

                     

                    @MrRipper:

                     

                    Not really all that much.  I think "pretty fast" guys would knock out that mileage and save maybe 10 minutes a day.  But 12 hrs/wk of mostly easy mileage will do tons for one's aerobic endurance.

                     

                    FWIW, I have seen huge improvements by just adding easy miles and running one tempo per week with no speedwork.  I'm a little slower than you (20:44 5k, 6:44/mi) and do 95% of my miles at 8:30-9:00, with recoveries at 9:30.  The other 5% are long tempos at 7:15-7:25.

                     

                    Waow, 12 hours / week? I don't think I can have that as a realistic goal anytime soon. I have the free time available for that but I would have to build to that pretty gradually I think Smile But yes sometime in future it would be nice to get there.

                     

                    As for the "fast guys", it's several hours of difference per week depending how fast guys we're talking. Big grin

                     

                    Speedwork, well I actually call tempos one kind of fast session it being pretty fast paces. So are you saying that in winter you also did this kind of training with one long tempo and it worked? How long are those tempos btw? Thanks Smile

                    Wing


                    Joggaholic

                      Thanks for the info. Btw do you think you could do sub-20 just had bad races or something? Because I see that a lot of your 5K progression was done last winter but not much happened to your 5K times this year after winter. And I see you going slower in the second half of this year (though I didn't look too closely at your log). So I have a specific question again, last winter did you have those social intervals or just the random fast parts in easy runs?

                       

                      I started intervals around Nov last year, and just random faster runs which were infrequent before then. I attribute my improvement in 2013 over 2012 to just easy base building miles (~40mpw) that year, and I believe adding intervals to that base helped bump my 5k times down in spring of this year. I get some infrequent faster runs in winter time, but even fewer in the summer (I'm in TX so summer here is too hot). My 5k races in the last few months were not really normal. The 25:38 was with pushing an adult stroller as a volunteer, and then in the 23:03 I blew up in 98 degree heat. The more recent 20:35 is more indicative of my current fitness. I've been doing lots of long and slow miles in the last few months training for an ultra so I blame that on constantly tired legs. I will try to shoot for sub-20 in the spring for sure.

                        Run a bunch - mostly easy, some harder. Go with the flow with winter weather.

                         

                        If you get fresh snow, put your running snowshoes on. I'm not sure what "easy" really constitutes with snowshoes, but easy for me is usually in the 70-80% HRmax or an effort where I can talk in complete sentences. Any gadgets I have on are probably covered by long sleeves - out of sight and hearing. Pace is affected by snow conditions, hills, and trails, so I tend to use breathing to judge the intensity for a run and use hrm to log it. Hard days might get up to 85% HRmax or so for a period of time depending on goal of run and traction. (Kahtoola microspikes work well for harder efforts on packed snow on rolling hills.)

                        "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
                        NikoRosa


                        Funky Kicks 2019

                          cmon2  -  I don't have too much fancy winter running gear, so I have to layer up with long underwear, sweatpants, fleece pants and wind pants!  Trust me when I tell you that wearing four pairs of pants slows you down and is more challenging.  And I run Monday through Friday, regardless of the weather because I have to get my dog (see profile pic) his exercise or he is a fidgety guy all day long.  The only way the winter affects my running is that if it gets below ten degrees F, I can't bring my dog because his feet get too cold.

                           

                          Where I live in Western NY,  it doesn't typically get too much below 0 F so I am able to pile on enough clothes to run.  And with Stabilicers or snowshoes, what's on the ground doesn't matter.  I also don't have a time limit for my runs as I have a window of three to four hours every morning to get it done.

                           

                          So yeah, I do those tough snowy runs every day.  And in the spring I haven't lost any fitness.

                          Leah, mother of dogs

                            @Wing:

                             

                            I started intervals around Nov last year, and just random faster runs which were infrequent before then. I attribute my improvement in 2013 over 2012 to just easy base building miles (~40mpw) that year, and I believe adding intervals to that base helped bump my 5k times down in spring of this year. I get some infrequent faster runs in winter time, but even fewer in the summer (I'm in TX so summer here is too hot). My 5k races in the last few months were not really normal. The 25:38 was with pushing an adult stroller as a volunteer, and then in the 23:03 I blew up in 98 degree heat. The more recent 20:35 is more indicative of my current fitness. I've been doing lots of long and slow miles in the last few months training for an ultra so I blame that on constantly tired legs. I will try to shoot for sub-20 in the spring for sure.

                             

                            Ah, I see, well good luck to breaking 20. Smile I have similar goals. Big grin

                             

                            That about constantly tired legs is exactly what I complain about with regard to my winter training. I don't believe it needs to be so because it sounds like overdoing the training in some way if the legs can't recover, especially if can't recover for the races either. So this is what I want to avoid in the upcoming winter season... I don't race in winter btw, but early spring races would suffer in the past until second half of April or something like that.

                             

                            Hope the ultra went well btw. Smile

                             

                            EDIT: I just noticed you did the intervals during winter of 2012/2013. Hmm, well sure that would be one approach too, though definitely would have to be done off the (snowy) track for me, not that this is a real issue. As for the random faster runs, was that like 1-2 times a week?

                             

                             

                            @AKTrail:

                            Run a bunch - mostly easy, some harder. Go with the flow with winter weather.

                             

                            If you get fresh snow, put your running snowshoes on. I'm not sure what "easy" really constitutes with snowshoes, but easy for me is usually in the 70-80% HRmax or an effort where I can talk in complete sentences. Any gadgets I have on are probably covered by long sleeves - out of sight and hearing. Pace is affected by snow conditions, hills, and trails, so I tend to use breathing to judge the intensity for a run and use hrm to log it. Hard days might get up to 85% HRmax or so for a period of time depending on goal of run and traction. (Kahtoola microspikes work well for harder efforts on packed snow on rolling hills.)

                             

                            Yeah but this "mostly easy, some harder" is too vague. This is what I've been doing and I've been screwing it up somehow.

                             

                            I think you in Alaska(?) have much crazier conditions in winter, I don't really have that here, weather doesn't affect my training here so much. Just the track is covered in snow because they don't bother to ever clear it up Smile Otherwise I don't need to put on snowshoes or crazy warm clothes or anything. Temps are usually around +5 and -5 C... between 20-40 Fahrenheit for you Americans! I usually even pull up the long sleeves, at least as much as to see the HRM watch, no problem.

                             

                            Oh and I do run hills and trails in summer but I've yet to play much with snowy trails. Big grin  I did get such microspikes recently for my running shoes so maybe I'll try that out this winter. :P But in any case, I still do run hilly streets a lot where they clear the snow... And yeah this way hills are always part of my winter training. Summer too. Only time I can't fit hilly courses in the schedule is when I do the fast track workouts in spring/autumn :/ (I could still go on hills but uphills would have to be uncomfortably slow to keep it in recovery zone) Well, sometimes I actually do a hill workout as part of the fast sessions, hill intervals, enjoyable and definitely works well for improving race times. Smile

                             

                             

                            @NikoRosa:

                            cmon2  -  I don't have too much fancy winter running gear, so I have to layer up with long underwear, sweatpants, fleece pants and wind pants!  Trust me when I tell you that wearing four pairs of pants slows you down and is more challenging.  And I run Monday through Friday, regardless of the weather because I have to get my dog (see profile pic) his exercise or he is a fidgety guy all day long.  The only way the winter affects my running is that if it gets below ten degrees F, I can't bring my dog because his feet get too cold.

                             

                            Where I live in Western NY,  it doesn't typically get too much below 0 F so I am able to pile on enough clothes to run.  And with Stabilicers or snowshoes, what's on the ground doesn't matter.  I also don't have a time limit for my runs as I have a window of three to four hours every morning to get it done.

                             

                            So yeah, I do those tough snowy runs every day.  And in the spring I haven't lost any fitness.

                             

                            Oh yeah, I can imagine you have much crazier temperatures where you live (where is that?). Four pairs of pants?! I'm perfectly fine with one pair of thermo (but still slim) running tights. Even at the coldest temps, which would be between 5-10 Fahrenheit. Really I'm starting to feel I'm missing out on something by having only these "normal easy winters" here. ;p

                             

                            As for doing tough runs every day, that's cool, I don't think I'm there in fitness to tolerate such things every day without getting overloaded or is it genetics? Or your cute dog helps you somehow heheh. Really that's a big issue with my attempts at base building, somehow it's way too easy for me to run too much easy mileage! Surprised So imagine me adding tougher runs in that... would be even worse. I first just enjoy putting all the miles in and then a couple weeks later I suddenly realise that something's off, I'm not as "springy" anymore if I try to do something slightly faster, e.g. a moderate pace. Until I try anything faster than plain easy, I won't notice the issue :P

                             

                            I still don't really understand if that's just me or if this is a normal side effect or what. I think it shouldn't be normal though :/ Because I see all these reports online about people who do base building, 95% easy or something, and still keep improving in races before even starting to add in some faster workouts. So I guess it's all about the structure of the training plan, right amount and balance of easy runs and of course the 5% "faster than easy" whatever runs. :P

                            NikoRosa


                            Funky Kicks 2019

                              OMG I would freeze to death in just running tights at five to ten degrees F!!!  LMAO, maybe I'm the weird one.  I just don't like to be cold, ever.  So I dress warm enough so I start off comfortable.  By the time I am done running I have soaked my clothes with sweat, but for me it beats being chilly in the beginning.   I'm sure the way I do it is the wrong way, but I would rather be too warm than too cold.

                               

                              I don't really have any choice in running in snow day in and day out.  I live out in the country (a couple hours south of Buffalo, NY) so they don't put road salt down, just sand.  If I waited for the roads to clear, I wouldn't run for weeks at a time.  And on top of that, my favorite road is a seasonal road, which means they do no maintenance (plowing) from December 1st to April 1st.  If I am lucky, some crazy person has driven their four wheel drive truck or a snowmobile down that road so I can use their tracks.

                               

                              It sounds like you take a pretty serious approach to running and have specific goals.  Personally I am more just wanting to rack up lots of miles and it is okay if they are mostly easy miles.  I guess all I want to say is that if you don't let the weather get in your way, there is no reason why you can't keep up your speed, you just have to approach it differently.

                               

                              I think there is a big psychological gain from toughing it  all winter too.  When you have dragged yoursef out into single digit temps and double digit snowfalls, running in a summer rainstorm seems like a cake walk.

                              Leah, mother of dogs

                                OMG I would freeze to death in just running tights at five to ten degrees F!!!  LMAO, maybe I'm the weird one.  I just don't like to be cold, ever.  So I dress warm enough so I start off comfortable.  By the time I am done running I have soaked my clothes with sweat, but for me it beats being chilly in the beginning.   I'm sure the way I do it is the wrong way, but I would rather be too warm than too cold.

                                 

                                I don't really have any choice in running in snow day in and day out.  I live out in the country (a couple hours south of Buffalo, NY) so they don't put road salt down, just sand.  If I waited for the roads to clear, I wouldn't run for weeks at a time.  And on top of that, my favorite road is a seasonal road, which means they do no maintenance (plowing) from December 1st to April 1st.  If I am lucky, some crazy person has driven their four wheel drive truck or a snowmobile down that road so I can use their tracks.

                                 

                                It sounds like you take a pretty serious approach to running and have specific goals.  Personally I am more just wanting to rack up lots of miles and it is okay if they are mostly easy miles.  I guess all I want to say is that if you don't let the weather get in your way, there is no reason why you can't keep up your speed, you just have to approach it differently.

                                 

                                I think there is a big psychological gain from toughing it  all winter too.  When you have dragged yoursef out into single digit temps and double digit snowfalls, running in a summer rainstorm seems like a cake walk.

                                 

                                ah heh, I see Tongue well I don't feel cold in thermo tights ever. I only need 1 extra layer over my upper body. In single digits another layer on top of that. And I will carry an extra layer that I remove after the first few minutes of running (then I put it around my waist to carry it) but it's not too heavy, doesn't slow me much I think. But you are right, you do have the opposite approach to me, I prefer not to sweat at all Smile (That's also important when I don't do a door to door run or I'd get too cold from sweat drying up by the time I get home.)

                                 

                                Most roads are also not cleared here either, just the main ones, so it can get boring doing the same routes heh... I do like running in snow but when it's not fresh anymore it's more ice like and slippery. :S Anyway it definitely sounds like a lot of fun, your training in winter, heheh. Big grin Oh and yes single digit temps, that's fun as well! Tongue Too bad it's pretty rare here for the weather to be that cold but I like going out then (too).

                                 

                                Yes I do take this seriously...I don't mind easy miles at all as long as it works. Smile And yes winter itself isn't stopping me, that's not the problem, just finding the right training schedule that works for me. Thanks for your input, it definitely helps.

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