Threshold Pace? (Read 2195 times)

Scout7


CPT Curmudgeon


     

    I certainly wouldn't pay too much attention to the debate that does on at letsrun.  Probably more than 90% of them don't know what the hell they're talking about and things are way too detail and number oriented anyways.

     

     

    You might enjoy this piece.

    JimR


      It's the fastest pace you can achieve while passing through your doorway.

         

        I certainly wouldn't pay too much attention to the debate that does on at letsrun.  Probably more than 90% of them don't know what the hell they're talking about and things are way too detail and number oriented anyways.

         

        The trick is finding that 10%. 


        Menace to Sobriety

          Janie, today I quit my job. And then I told my boss to go f*** himself, and then I blackmailed him for almost sixty thousand dollars. Pass the asparagus.

             Fast is never easy. If it is, its not fast.

             

            Wrong.


            she runs like a girl

              Ok. So a question for you guys. How long should the tempo be? I mean, obviously it varies but I train for 5ks mostly, so how long should my tempo runs be in general? (e.g. 15-20 mins?) And how does that change when training for different distances? Will longer tempos help with races or do more harm than good?
              2010 goals: PR at distances from 3k-HM 3k: 02/02/10 - 12:00 - road 5k :03/13/10 - 20:32 - road 10mile: 04/02/10 - 1:15:49 "The only thing I hate more than running is not running"
                Ok. So a question for you guys. How long should the tempo be? I mean, obviously it varies but I train for 5ks mostly, so how long should my tempo runs be in general? (e.g. 15-20 mins?) And how does that change when training for different distances? Will longer tempos help with races or do more harm than good?

                 

                Kimmi:

                 

                Greg McMillan and I had been entertaining the idea of coming up with a chart to talk about "what calls what and at what effort"...  Lydiard called a whole bunch of fast runs "Time Trial".  In Spokane in 2004, at his last clinic, Don Kardong asked about tempo run because there's none in his schedule.  He didn't even know what it is so I turned to Don and (quietly) said, "Well, they did 3/4 effort 10-mile run twice a week..." and that was enough for him.  I have seen so many threads at LR asking about Lydiard time trial; his time trial during conditioning is totally different from time trial during track training and that's sort of answer to your question.

                 

                My understanding of "tempo run" is, as it's going on on this thread as well, basically Steady State run as some may call it (I need to get that going with Greg...)--high end aerobic run for a fairly good duratioin.  I think someone actually (Pfitz?) describes it as "fast pace you can hold for an hour".  Lydiard's 3/4 effort 10-miler is just that--they used to do that in 54~58 minutes (!).  And that goes middle distance runners like Peter Snell too.  There's a reason for doing this kind of workout regardless of your race distance.  This kind of run really pushes your VO2Max and it's benefitial for people running 800m as well as a marathon.  Of course, I had a hard time pushing it for an hour in my earlier days so I did either 3~4X1200m OR about 10k tempo which took me about 40-minutes.  All of us, at one point of time, have to work our way up.  When I told you to do a 2-minute tempo run the day before your 5k race, it's usually 1km tempo run but I found out that, for me, a 20-minute 5k guy, 1k would take about 3:40 or so and that was too much.  I shortened it down to 2:30~2:45 and that worked good.  So I even watered it down even further because you've never done anything like this before (a quickie the day before the race) so I said 2-minutes, fully aware some readers here might scratch their head thinking, "Why 2-minutes?"  It's a bogus number but with a good reason.  Same thing with tempo run.  If you've never done anything like this, you'll most probably need to work your way up.  There are two ways, basically, to do so: you either pick some bogus duration, say 30-minutes, and start out relatively easy because you don't want to burn out in a few weeks, and gradually put more effort into it so the pace is getting faster--hopefully and ideally the pace will pick up naturally.  Or, some one like me who actually has a bit of a problem slowing down, might want to set the pace (effort) and start out short, like 12 minutes, and gradually work your way up to near an hour.  The effort, or pace, as well as duration should ALWAYS be worked up gradually.  You don't jump out and start doing 100-miles a week; just the same, you don't jump out and start doing a marathon-pace 60minutes tempo run. 

                 

                Time trial in preparation for actual race is a bit different and we're talking about 2 completely different topics (although Lydiard called them both "Time Trial").  For 1500m runner, you'd do 1000m or 1200m or even 1500m.  For 5000m guy, you'd do 3000m or 4000m as well as 5000m.  I had my girl do 4000m tempo run quite a bit.  It worked out really nicely--we both run together and took 2 laps lead and alternate for 10 laps.  Works out really nicely.  When another girl was having a problem focusing during a 10k race, I had her do 4-mile on track.  Her husband is a fairly good runner himself so they did the 2-lap alternate and worked really well that way.  Would 5-mile tempo have been better?  I don't know.  If there's a set text book, I would love to see that but I very much doubt, if anybody recommend any set magic number, that's total BS cuz it ain't exist.  It's case by case and individual by individual.  You figure out the purpose of the workout and you understand the principles of the workout, a pinch of salt and pepper would be your own situation.

                xor


                  "fast pace you can hold for an hour".

                   

                  Daniels too.  Which is why he will shorthand this as "about 10k pace" for less-fast folks and "about half marathon pace" for faster folks.  Of course, the pace would be somewhere in the middle... but that gets to the point, which is that it doesn't need to be 100% exact and, in fact, trying to be 100% exact can cause problems because every day is different.  Effort based running... and so Daniels also just calls it "comfortably hard".  (see p113 of the 2ed of his book)

                   

                    The short answer is that tempo running is an intentionally vague concept. (I just realize that Nader linked to my view earlier.)

                      As vague as tempo pace is, it's still almost always better to err on the side of doing tempo runs slower than LT pace than faster.

                       

                      A mix of short tempos and long tempos is probably best.  If you're dong long tempos of say an hour it will obviously be at a pace that's slower than 60 minute race pace.

                      Runners run.

                        A mix of short tempos and long tempos is probably best.

                        Long being approx 60 min and short being approx 20 min?

                        "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


                        Prince of Fatness

                          I do tempos by time, and generally figure it as 40 - 50% of a race.  So a 45 minute tempo would be at an effort that I could complete a race in 100 minutes, give or take.  For me that's about half marathon effort.  I don't go crazy over monitoring the pace while out there running, but it always ends up in the ballpark.  I never feel wiped out after doing it this way, and have found it to work out well.

                          Semi-retired.

                          xor


                            If you're dong long tempos of say an hour it will obviously be at a pace that's slower than 60 minute race pace.

                             

                             

                            I'll bite.  Why?  (mine assuredly are, but I'm still curious)

                             

                               

                               

                              I'll bite.  Why?  (mine assuredly are, but I'm still curious)

                               

                              Because tempo runs are slower than race pace.