Threshold Pace? (Read 2195 times)

    I do tempos by time, and generally figure it as 40 - 50% of a race.  So a 45 minute tempo would be at an effort that I could complete a race in 100 minutes, give or take.  For me that's about half marathon effort.  I don't go crazy over monitoring the pace while out there running, but it always ends up in the ballpark.  I never feel wiped out after doing it this way, and have found it to work out well.

     

    I get the sentiment of the post here, and this is probably what I "do", if I took the time to do the math on it, but do you really sit down and calculate this out and then try to hit a certain race effort? Or do you just run at a comfortably hard effort?


    The King of Beasts

      Long being approx 60 min and short being approx 20 min?

       

      that sounds about right.

      "As a dreamer of dreams and a travelin' man I have chalked up many a mile. Read dozens of books about heroes and crooks, And I've learned much from both of their styles." ~ Jimmy Buffett

       

      "I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."”


      Prince of Fatness

        I get the sentiment of the post here, and this is probably what I "do", if I took the time to do the math on it, but do you really sit down and calculate this out and then try to hit a certain pace? Or do you just run at a comfortably hard effort?

         

        I don't get anal about it.  I just try to run at a certain effort level based on the time I'll be running.  When I upload the data to my log it is almost always in the 40 - 50% range.  But no, I don't pay much attention to the numbers while running.  Then it is really just paying attention to effort level. 

         

        MTA:  And I'll add that after a tempo run I want to feel like I ran hard, but am refreshed and not wiped out.  This to me is the key to knowing whether I did it right.

        Semi-retired.

           

          that sounds about right.

           Thanks.

          "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus

          xor


             

            Because tempo runs are slower than race pace.

             

            Sorry, but I still don't grasp this.  I realize that it is obvious to you and Mike.  It is not to me.  If a run a tempo run as "the pace I could hold for about an hour", then to me that *is* my "race pace" for an hour-long race (15k-ish?).

             

            Perhaps the difference is that I end a tempo run not being completely destroyed, but if I truly raced that 15k, I should be trashed at the end.  So, therefore, tempo is slower and a 15k is not run "comfortably hard".

             

            Anyway.  I just go out and run.  I'm pretty sure my tempo runs are just a skosh faster than my half marathon pace.  And I am not destroyed afterward.

             

            I'm about to go run some 1200s, though.  I will see how I feel after that.

             

            (clarification: I am not trying to fight or say "you are wrong". I'm interested in learning.  I fully accept that I could be doing these tempo runs incorrectly/suboptimally, inasmuch as they are indeed vague)

             

               

              I don't get anal about it.  I just try to run at a certain effort level based on the time I'll be running.  When I upload the data to my log it is almost always in the 40 - 50% range.  But no, I don't pay much attention to the numbers while running.  Then it is really just paying attention to effort level. 

               

              Yeah, that's what I do, too. That's why I think it's best to think of tempo running as a skill. Maybe it's like walking a balance beam or a tightrope. It comes with practice. At the beginning, it is most likely difficult to find the right balance, but over time it just becomes natural. You find that thin space between easy running and race effort, and you play around in there.

                 

                Sorry, but I still don't grasp this.  I realize that it is obvious to you and Mike.  It is not to me.  If a run a tempo run as "the pace I could hold for about an hour", then to me that *is* my "race pace" for an hour-long race (15k-ish?).

                 

                Perhaps the difference is that I end a tempo run not being completely destroyed, but if I truly raced that 15k, I should be trashed at the end.  So, therefore, tempo is slower and a 15k is not run "comfortably hard".

                 

                Anyway.  I just go out and run.  I'm pretty sure my tempo runs are just a skosh faster than my half marathon pace.  And I am not destroyed afterward.

                 

                I'm about to go run some 1200s, though.  I will see how I feel after that.

                 

                (clarification: I am not trying to fight or say "you are wrong". I'm interested in learning.  I fully accept that I could be doing these tempo runs incorrectly/suboptimally, inasmuch as they are indeed vague)

                You've nailed why you can't boil tempo running down to a "pace." The classic Daniels 20 minute tempos are 60 minute race pace. But if you do longer tempos, then PH's way of thinking will give you a rule of thumb way to correlate your pace in tempo runs to race paces. 

                   

                  Sorry, but I still don't grasp this.  I realize that it is obvious to you and Mike.  It is not to me.  If a run a tempo run as "the pace I could hold for about an hour", then to me that *is* my "race pace" for an hour-long race (15k-ish?).

                   

                  Perhaps the difference is that I end a tempo run not being completely destroyed, but if I truly raced that 15k, I should be trashed at the end.  So, therefore, tempo is slower and a 15k is not run "comfortably hard".

                   

                  Anyway.  I just go out and run.  I'm pretty sure my tempo runs are just a skosh faster than my half marathon pace.  And I am not destroyed afterward.

                   

                  I'm about to go run some 1200s, though.  I will see how I feel after that.

                   

                  (clarification: I am not trying to fight or say "you are wrong". I'm interested in learning.  I fully accept that I could be doing these tempo runs incorrectly/suboptimally, inasmuch as they are indeed vague)

                   

                  The coach I use has three ranges of tempo duration (20-30 minutes, 40-50, and 60-70).  The pace of each of these gets slower as the time increases. It might start at 93% of your 5K time, and be as slow as 87% of your 5K time (if you were to run a 5K today). 

                  Even Daniels' makes adjustments to the tempo pace based on how long the tempo run will last. 

                  xor


                    It probably doesn't help that I've only participated in one 15k race in my life and it was two hours before a 5k (Gasparilla in Tampa).

                     

                    Ok then.  Comfortably hard.  On cold days, comfortably numb.

                     

                    xor


                       

                      The coach I use has three ranges of tempo duration (20-30 minutes, 40-50, and 60-70).  The pace of each of these gets slower as the time increases. It might start at 93% of your 5K time, and be as slow as 87% of your 5K time (if you were to run a 5K today). 

                      Even Daniels' makes adjustments to the tempo pace based on how long the tempo run will last. 

                       

                      I have absolutely no idea how I'd know what 87% of my 5k pace (which can range from day to day depending on weather and my stomach) feels like.  But I tip my hat to anyone who can nail it this exactly.

                       

                      I realize that longer tempo runs are done at a slower pace; I'm just stuck on the definitions.  Which are vague... and trying to get to the meat of what was declared to be "obvious", but might not be to readers of Running 101.  Nor me, and I'm not a 101 runner.

                       


                      Prince of Fatness

                        I'll add that I am not really into tempos in the 20 minute range.  That comes to about a 10K effort level for me.  If I am running at that effort I'd prefer to break it up and do, say, 5 x 5 minutes at that effort with short recoveries.  That way I get more time in at the harder effort without beating the crap out of myself.

                         

                        Usually when in racing season 40 - 45 minutes is the minimum time that I will run a tempo.

                        Semi-retired.

                          Usually when in racing season 40 - 45 minutes is the minimum time that I will run a tempo.

                           Without respect to the length of the race or the proximity of race day ?

                           

                          mta: not being a wise guy; I have been thinking about tempo run length recently.

                          "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


                          Just a dude.

                            So, first of all, I've only been running about 6 months...


                            My first goal was to build up mileage... so I built up to around 40-50 mpw, doing almost entirely easy runs.


                            I decided to run some races this summer, so I did a month of hills in April, and this month I have been doing some speed work (anaerobic stuff)...  


                            My first race is May 30, but my important race (for this summer) is July 24th I think... (This is kind of a test the waters summer, I don't expect to really race well until 2011...)  My race distance is 1500-5000...


                            I've plugged some time trial times into McMillan's calculator to try to get an idea of what I should be doing for training paces... I find his shorter interval paces (say, 400s) pretty doable, but longer interval paces (say, 1000s or 1200s) to be extremely difficult.  I also find that what I have been running for an easy pace is way slow compared to his recommendations.


                            I've done next to nothing in the way of tempo runs.  Should I work on these this summer? Should I hold off until I start building base again? 


                            I'm doing 1 day with 5k intervals, 1 day with 3k intervals, a long run, and easy runs (maybe 2x strides) each week.  If I want to add a tempo run, would I replace an interval day or an easy day with that? 


                            If it matters, I'm basically 40 years old...


                            Thanks!


                            -Kelly

                            Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape... 

                              I'm not sure why I'm so fired up to post on this thread (maybe because I really like tempo running), but I just wanted to add that so much depends also on where you are in your cycle of training and what type of runner you are.


                              When I am in a base season and far away from speed work, my tempo runs will be much closer to race pace, since I will be aerobically strong and also because these are the primary sorts of workouts that I do. As I move into a more race-specific season, especially if we're talking 5k-10k racing, then a much larger gap opens up between tempo runs and race pace. That's because as I add more speed work, my races get faster even though I haven't gotten much stronger aerobically and also because the tempos are not the primary workouts any more, but mainly serve to maintain aerobic fitness rather than develop it.


                              A "strength" runner--typically your high mileage, more experienced runner--can handle longer efforts in tempo range and in fact needs these to continue aerobic development. A "speed" runner--typically a more inexperienced runner or aerobically weak relative to his speed for any number of reasons--might only be able to handle the shorter, faster sort of tempo running that Daniels advocates.


                              The pace and duration of your tempo runs are a sign of your strength as a runner and a great way to develop that strength. A race is sort of a tempo run + race day magic. The race day magic will take you further and can be enhanced by hard intervals in a peaking period, but it's that strong tempo running that really makes the runner.


                              she runs like a girl

                                Thanks for the debate guys!

                                I was very confused about the tempo run because I usually do 1 of 2 tempo runs - the 15 minute straight tempo where I usually get around 3.5 km or the 2x 10 minute tempo where I'm getting around 4.5,4.6 km not including the short rest (~2 minutes between). I was wondering if that was enough and if running longer tempos will help my race performance - as Nobby already knows, I'm really lacking in the end of my races. Or if this is enough as many of you suggested, you don't tempo as far as race distance. But I know most of you are marathon guys whereas I run mostly 5ks

                                For those of who you know me, I'm 20 and I run relative low mileage (~30mi/week)

                                2010 goals: PR at distances from 3k-HM 3k: 02/02/10 - 12:00 - road 5k :03/13/10 - 20:32 - road 10mile: 04/02/10 - 1:15:49 "The only thing I hate more than running is not running"