Threshold Pace? (Read 2200 times)

    So, is there a feeling associated with approaching lactate threshold?


    I was a sprinter (100m/200m) in high school, but not a great one.  Not really even a very good one.  I mainly ran track to add explosiveness for football.  However, I do remember running 400s.  Those sucked.  I would sprint as fast as I could around the track and at about the 330 mark I would feel like I was going to collapse, couldn't suck wind fast enough.  There's a weird sort of taste associated with that feeling as well.  I kind of get that when I sprint at the end of a race now or maybe a little earlier in a 5k.  


    Would that be approaching lactate threshold?  


    In response to the letsrun conversation about the "art" of running vs. the "science" of running:


    I think one of the hidden blessings of science is its contribution to language.  If "lactate threshold" means the above feeling, then I've suddenly got a very brief, easy to use statement that encapsulates an otherwise 'hard-to-describe' phenomenon.  I'm not going to go out and by a heart rate monitor and work out fancy algorithms, but I am going to pay attention to my body and sometimes giving someone a concept gives them a certain power over the phenomenon.  My hypothesis:  Science contributes greatly to the work of artists.


    I suppose its more of a "contention" than a "hypothesis."  




     

    I agree that science is a great producer of concepts. But I don't see "lactate threshold" as being briefer or easier to use than "tempo pace" or "comfortably hard." Fortunately, we don't have to choose.


    Beware, batbear...

      It's not briefer or easier to use, it's different.  "Lactate threshold," if I understand it correctly, describes a state.  The other terms are talking about pacing.  Right?

      2014 Goal -- Run 5X per week, pain-free (relatively) by end of summer.

        They are all states, but unless you are taking blood samples while you're running, I think that "comfortably hard" is much more precise and empirical than "Lactate threshold".


        she runs like a girl

           

          1) Based on your race times, 3.5km in 15 minutes is probably putting you too far above LT for too long to get the full benefit.

           

          2) Tempos are of greater benefits for longer distance racers.  For 5K, the primary benefits are (1) increasing your LT, and (2) learning to focus.  I think 20-30 minutes is sufficient.  I've done it both ways, all at once, or in 10-minute increments.  The primary goal needs to be the effort.  You want to spend the most minutes as possible right at LT.  Too slow, you're running easy, too fast, you're not "training", you're just practicing running fast.

           

          3) You're as fast as all get out...increasing your weekly volume by 25%-35% percent and getting religious about a weekly long run would do wonders for your "end of races".  Adding tempos into this mix, I think, would help.

           Thank you for the input. I am currently and slowing working my way up to a higher mileage. I work and I am a student and part time care taker for my mom (MS) so for me its about finding the time to put that run in. I will definitely working on it. Nobby has also encouraged long runs. I am planning on Sunday. I am actually excited

          MTA: I have a date with the trails Smile

          2010 goals: PR at distances from 3k-HM 3k: 02/02/10 - 12:00 - road 5k :03/13/10 - 20:32 - road 10mile: 04/02/10 - 1:15:49 "The only thing I hate more than running is not running"

            Semantic question:

             

            Is there a difference between "threshold pace" and "tempo pace?" The same?

             

            Is one more precise than the other?

              Semantic question:

               

              Is there a difference between "threshold pace" and "tempo pace?" The same?

               

              Is one more precise than the other?

               

              It was all called tempo running until the folks in white lab coats took over the discourse of training. Each concept has its domain of precision. One concept is very precise in the lab. The other is very precise on the roads.

              xor


                Your definition of "very precise" and mine vary.

                 

                  Most people run tempos too fast. It shouldn't feel like a race and you should feel good when done with the work out, not fried.  A simple formula I use is to run a 20-25 min fast tempo at a pace or effort around 30 seconds slower than 5K race pace. Or I will tell a runner to do a 30 min progression tempo where after a warm up they slowly progress during the 30 min until the last half mile they are running near or at 10K pace

                   

                  I also think a slow tempo run of 40 - 60 min (depending on miles per week) at a pace around 1 min slower than 5K race pace has equal benefits to a fast tempo. As Mikey said, lean towards being cautious with pace vs. too fast. 

                   

                  Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

                    Your definition of "very precise" and mine vary.

                     

                    Whatever. Lack of attention does not make the concept any less precise.

                       

                      Whatever.

                       

                      I sensed he crossed your threshold...

                         

                        I sensed he crossed your threshold...

                         

                        You keep poking and well...


                        she runs like a girl

                          Alright so I'm big on knowing why

                          So why is this precision so important and what problems come from going too fast? I saw someone mention that you are practising fast running but I want to know why that is bad.

                          (and I'm not trying to cross anyone's threshold, here. I'm just a curious young runner)

                          2010 goals: PR at distances from 3k-HM 3k: 02/02/10 - 12:00 - road 5k :03/13/10 - 20:32 - road 10mile: 04/02/10 - 1:15:49 "The only thing I hate more than running is not running"
                          Scout7


                          CPT Curmudgeon

                            Alright so I'm big on knowing why

                            So why is this precision so important and what problems come from going too fast? I saw someone mention that you are practising fast running but I want to know why that is bad.

                            (and I'm not trying to cross anyone's threshold, here. I'm just a curious young runner)

                             

                            It's not going too fast, it's going too hard.

                             

                            Going too hard will affect your other training, and will not work the body's systems that you had initially intended to for that session.  The precision is important because of the need to balance "training load".  Training load is a combination of intensity of effort and total volume.  You need to strike a fine balance between getting as much volume as you can handle and getting as much intensity as you can handle.   More intensity limits your volume, and vice versa.  So being precise consists of knowing how hard you are working how often, and being *honest* with yourself in regards to that knowing.

                             

                            Practicing "fast running" isn't the point of a tempo run.

                              With regards to precision: "It is the mark of an educated person not to demand more precision than the subject matter allows." Aristotle


                              Kimmie, the problems that come from running too fast are that you get too tired. Your form breaks down. You lose your rhythm. And you learn to associate running fast with a hard effort. In short, you lose control. When training, you want to practice running well and strong, not falling apart and suffering. It's just like any other sport.


                              Tempo running is smooth, strong, balanced running. It's practicing doing what we do well, pushing a bit but staying in control. I realize that for many (perhaps most?) of you this sounds very vague, but to me it is as simple and clear as running gets. I'm not trying to be an ass about this. (Though maybe I'm succeeding.)

                              Scout7


                              CPT Curmudgeon

                                With regards to precision: "It is the mark of an educated person not to demand more precision than the subject matter allows." Aristotle


                                Kimmie, the problems that come from running too fast are that you get too tired. Your form breaks down. You lose your rhythm. And you learn to associate running fast with a hard effort. In short, you lose control. When training, you want to practice running well and strong, not falling apart and suffering. It's just like any other sport.


                                Tempo running is smooth, strong, balanced running. It's practicing doing what we do well, pushing a bit but staying in control. I realize that for many (perhaps most?) of you this sounds very vague, but to me it is as simple and clear as running gets. I'm not trying to be an ass about this. (Though maybe I'm succeeding.)

                                 

                                As a corollary to the above:

                                 

                                You don't want to practice falling apart, but you shouldn't be afraid of it happening.  In other words, accept that chances are you will go too hard at times, you will "fail" and blow up.  Doing this is not a bad thing; in fact, it's a good thing.  You learn from those failures.  You learn what "too hard" means, you learn where that razor's edge is and how to walk it.