Forums > Racing > 2010 - 10km < 38 minutes + 5km < 18 minutes
A speed guy can pop a good 5k and really struggle to put it together for 10k. A distance-oriented guy can run a solid 10k--hold his anaerobic threshold for 40 minutes, but really struggle to run a faster pace for 5k. You'll find a lot of marathon runners who split a 5k PR in their 10k.
Speaking for myself, I find the 5k much easier to 'get right' than the 10k. The 10k feels like an in-between pace to me: slower than the all-in effort of 5k pace, harder than the comfortably-hard HM pace. It's a hinterland for me.
The Logic of Long Distance
Right on Hereford...
I was stuck on the 18min bubble then I began doing med. ball V-ups aka Pike crunches? This was my secret to 17:22 5K
Seriously? Can you elaborate?
Well I would never argue with the likes of Jim, Ken and Dakota (too much experience, kilometres and racing )but there is definitetly something that seems to make a sub 18 5km more likely than a sub 38 10km. Certainly endurance and number of miles run plays a massive role but I agree with John that there must be something more. Here are my PR's for 2009: 3km - 10:17. I don't have Jim's fancy calculator but on McMillan the predictaed values should be 5KM - 17:56 and 10km 37:15 and as you can see the actual results aren't even close ... 5km - 18:44 10km - 39:30 There is something very very inconsistenet with these results despite a fairly regular 60km/week and 2 x speed sessions. Probably as Dakota says - just more endurance needed. Dwane
Well I would never argue with the likes of Jim, Ken and Dakota (too much experience, kilometres and racing )but there is definitetly something that seems to make a sub 18 5km more likely than a sub 38 10km. Certainly endurance and number of miles run plays a massive role but I agree with John that there must be something more.
Here are my PR's for 2009:
3km - 10:17. I don't have Jim's fancy calculator but on McMillan the predictaed values should be 5KM - 17:56 and 10km 37:15 and as you can see the actual results aren't even close ...
5km - 18:44
10km - 39:30
There is something very very inconsistenet with these results despite a fairly regular 60km/week and 2 x speed sessions. Probably as Dakota says - just more endurance needed.
Dwane
Dwane, I can tell you right now that I if I had to wager my house on being able to run a sub 38 10K or a sub 18 5K I'd go with the 10K hands down. I've never run either time but a sub 38 seems so much more doable to me than the 5K time. Heck I might even go with a sub 37 10K over the sub 18 5K time! I'm guessing this is because, over the years, I've been way more focused on longer distances and feel comfortable at a somewhat harder pace for a longer distance than a very uncomfortable pace over a shorter distance.
When I said
"It seems that at least 80% of those who post on forums are way off on equivalent times."
I was really thinking in terms of being aware of equivalent times and how they are often ignored when it comes to setting goals. The example of 19-min 5k, 40 min for the 10k, and 1:30 for the half is one see all the time. In other words the majority of posters don't seem to realize that a 19-minute 5k is a much better time than a 90-minute half marathon, or for that matter than an 18-min 5k is a better time than 38:00 for 10k.
That being said I do believe that most of those who can't hit the projected times in longer races actually could if they trained more. Remember too that I said 80% and not 100% "of those who post on forums". Genetics also comes into play as some people have more natural speed and other have more on the endurance end. Most, however, have more of a balance between the two.
Personally I have found the 5k to be a much tougher race. In the past 4 years I've had at least 10 races between 10k-30k that project a 5k in the 18's but I've never broken 19 (unless you count 18:59.73). And I've had lots of attempts too.
interesting comments here, my 2009 pbs are:
5k 17.59
10k 39.15
HM 1.31.18
mara 3hr.28
I find the 5k far easier than any of the other distances, despite being 45 I ran a 100m well under 13 secs into a wind so would not be far off 12 if I really pushed it, so my fast short pace has hardly moved since my teens (ex 100m sprinter in my youth who only recently has moved to the longer stuff)
I have really really pushed the longer stuff to go for a sub 3.05 mara this spring, and I will go for 1.25 or soHM later in may/june time, but genuinely the shorter the event the far easier I find it.
I normally train for 30-35 miles/week but on the hadd training regime I think I may have pushed the thresholds a bit more, but it is very slow progress. Folks seem to run a sub 3hr mara with much slower 5k times than me - very frustrating for me really.
It must all be in the genes?
interesting comments here, my 2009 pbs are: 5k 17.59 10k 39.15 HM 1.31.18 mara 3hr.28 I find the 5k far easier than any of the other distances, despite being 45 I ran a 100m well under 13 secs into a wind so would not be far off 12 if I really pushed it, so my fast short pace has hardly moved since my teens (ex 100m sprinter in my youth who only recently has moved to the longer stuff) I have really really pushed the longer stuff to go for a sub 3.05 mara this spring, and I will go for 1.25 or soHM later in may/june time, but genuinely the shorter the event the far easier I find it. I normally train for 30-35 miles/week but on the hadd training regime I think I may have pushed the thresholds a bit more, but it is very slow progress. Folks seem to run a sub 3hr mara with much slower 5k times than me - very frustrating for me really. It must all be in the genes?
Naw, it's in the training. Average 70 mpw and you'll be sub 3, smiling.
The King of Beasts
yep.
Are we there yet?
DLJ - plz put me on the list for 2010
Dakota-
I was sidelined for 2 months this summer due to a knee injury and I asked a personal trainer at my gym for an ab workout that would benefit me in core strengthening to help maintain my pace.. he gave three excercises and I have listed them in order of effectiveness... Upon returning to running I PR'd every distance in the fall that I ran.
I found the V-up to be the most effective when combined with a medicine ball.. It is the only thing I changed once I began running again, oh and whey protein shakes after long runs.. chocolate mmmmm
Dwane, I would hazard a guess that you do a fair amount of 5k or faster interval work, which is going to give you a significant performance edge in the 5k, over the 10k. It strikes me that weekly stamina intervals (10k, 15k and half marathon paced) would probably pull your times closer in line.
RR - no doubt you are right. I have been thinking that I need to do some longer interval workouts but can't seem to find the right pace or distance. Any other suggestions apart from the one I see in your log of 1500m (sorry metric) x 4 at 4min/km pace with 300m recovery jog.
P.S. Kudos to you RR - that is an impressive workout. Tried to emulate your long intervals (even doing all 1600m's not the usual 1500) and failed miserably.. Wil definitetly try again - 1 minute 30 second SR with mile times of 6:01+ 6:07 + 6:19 and tanked on the fourth mile making only 400m in 1:30.
"It seems that at least 80% of those who post on forums are way off on equivalent times. A common set of goals I see is 19-min 5k, 40-min 10k, and 1:30 half. These goals don't line up at all.
The 19-min 5k is far and away the most difficult with the 1:30 half being the easiest."
I resemble those remarks, as those were my precise goals last year. I made the shorter distances more easily than the half. And I'm very aware of the various calculators, so ignorance isn't my excuse. I just find the 5ks a bit easier, and I can run more of them, so it's more likely to luck into better conditions.
Perhaps I'm not pushing hard enough on the halfs, but it doesn't feel that way during the races. I've upped my miles a bit, so we'll see if that helps.
2012 goals: sub 6:00 pace 5kdon't get injured
RR - no doubt you are right. I have been thinking that I need to do some longer interval workouts but can't seem to find the right pace or distance. Any other suggestions apart from the one I see in your log of 1500m (sorry metric) x 4 at 4min/km pace with 300m recovery jog. Dwane P.S. Kudos to you RR - that is an impressive workout. Tried to emulate your long intervals (even doing all 1600m's not the usual 1500) and failed miserably.. Wil definitetly try again - 1 minute 30 second SR with mile times of 6:01+ 6:07 + 6:19 and tanked on the fourth mile making only 400m in 1:30.
Hi Dwane,
Looks like you went off a bit quick in those, your 1st 1600 was 23 seconds too fast for 4:00km pace!! That workout for me is normally a 5 x 1 mile @ 10 mile pace with 0.2 miles recovery jogs, but I did 4 last week as I was easing back into solid training. 10 mile pace from your 5k time is about 4:03 per km.
Two other classics of this type I like are:
6 x 1k @ 10k pace with 200m jogs (3:53 per km according to the calculators)
6 x 1m or 5 x 2k @ half marathon pace with 1.30 - 2.00 jogs between (4:07 km pace)
The crucial thing with these workouts is to not do them too fast, but to do the first split the same pace as the last one, and to finish them with the feeling you could do another solid one if necessary. By going too fast in your workout today you changed this from an anerobic threshold type workout to a VO2 workout, and a very hard one at that!! Your threshold pace is where you can make big gains, I suspect your VO2 max is fairly well developed already.
You can add 4 x 200m in 38-40 sec after these sessions with 200m jogs between if you feel the need to run fast, but again don't get tempted to run these quicker or flat out - that will just compromise what you are trying to achieve with them - good form at a fast pace (I must get back to doing these myself - I've drifted away from them as I don't have a track near were I live these days).
I'm sure one of these sessions a week instead of one of your normal speed sessions would really boost your stamina in the longer races. Good luck mate!
(modified to add target paces).
I'll throw my goals in...
(Bear in mind that these are not my primary goals in 2010, but are stepping stones to achieving a 26.2 goal)
5k - <17
10k - <35
These are a (very) big stretch for me. Might even have to do some of this "speed" work stuff.
What was the secret, they wanted to know; in a thousand different ways they wanted to know The Secret. And not one of them was prepared, truly prepared to believe that it had not so much to do with chemicals and zippy mental tricks as with that most unprofound and sometimes heart-rending process of removing, molecule by molecule, the very tough rubber that comprised the bottoms of his training shoes. The Trial of Miles; Miles of Trials
I'll throw my goals in... (Bear in mind that these are not my primary goals in 2010, but are stepping stones to achieving a 26.2 goal) 5k - <17 10k - <35 These are a (very) big stretch for me. Might even have to do some of this "speed" work stuff.
We could start a club.
Those are my goals as well.
We could start a club. Those are my goals as well.
Ha! The only difference is that you will probly achieve them!
Yes, we could.
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