Define 'Bandit' (Read 1314 times)

It isn't the length of the run, it's the girth. Or so I hear. Party on, Girth.

To Jeff's stuff

I don't know if I've said that running as a bandit is illegal (although I realize its implied), I'm arguing that there's a demarcation of property rights that have been assigned and should be recognized. Now I'm a Canadian and we have a different Constitution, which isn't nearly as robust (or enforced as such) as the American Constitution... and I probably know as much about the American constitution as the average joe who's watched "Legally Blonde." In Canada, for something to be protected as "Freedom of Expression" it must further the values of: i) political participation, ii) truth seeking, iii) individual self-fulfillment. Taken from the Canadian experience, banning the bandits will be a limit on the form of expression - not the message. There are many other ways for bandits to get their message across, short of depriving another of "stealing". There is a need to balance the commercial interests of the race directors with freedom of speech. There are other meaningful alternatives available for the bandit to futher those 3 values of their expression. The philosophical motivations of the bandit are irrelevant. The bandit knows, or ought to know, that what she is doing amounts to "theft". That one doesn't believe there actions are wrong doesn't make it so. It doesn't matter if one doesn't think there's any societal value served by a race. I might believe that there's no societal value to gasoline and therefore I don't have to pay for it. Does this mean I don't have to pay? And yes the majority rights aren't the only one to consider. I agree! One of my favourite quotes from someone is that, "A properly functioning constitution should be counter-majoritarian." If a constitution is designed to protect the sometimes undesirable rights of people against the wishes of the majority. BUT there is a need to balance this with economic efficiency as well. The race community wouldn't function very well if everyone just ran as bandits. But I also know when to back off... I know a losing battle when I see one, and I don't think its wise to lock horns with a Graduate Philosophy student.

Naw, man, you know this stuff better than I do. I was just spouting hoo-hah. Good luck on your exams!

Ha. Thanks. But I do believe that there are some serious problems with the law and its reluctancy (In Canada at least) to recognize valuable social/philosophical considerations. This is an uber hijack --> Have you ever though about laws against vagrancy and homelessness? Why can't someone sleep in a park? Well, because people sleep at home - not in parks. Why can't you cook in a park? Well, its because people cook at home -not in parks? Why can't you.... you get the drift. We've constructed our laws around the interests of people who have a certain level of means to provide shelter for themselves, and shut down the public realm to anyone who can't afford places to live in. We turn homeless people into offenders - trespassers almost everywhere they go - and provide no real meaningful alternative for them. Just a thought. And Jeff, remember:

Banditing in this case seems to me less like civil disobedience and more like the Irish concept of boycott.

Unfortunately, I started the conversation when I should have been writing a grant proposal, which I need to have to my associate dean today, limiting my ability to contribute to the conversation.

I dont know about you, but it really pisses me off when work gets in the way of Running Ahead.....

This would be considered theft. No perhaps about it. Have you paid the entry fee to contribute towards drinks? No? It is theft.

It is theft...and maybe that is why the fee is so high for the run - because those not paying are drinking the provided bevs, etc.

If you purposely run on a course being used for a race then it is black and white. If you run there anyway and were not aware that a race was going to be held... and the roads are open to the public then it is grey. In your case it sounds black and white - and premeditated. Maybe not. This would be considered theft. No perhaps about it. Have you paid the entry fee to contribute towards drinks? No? It is theft. If it is a public road, which remains open to the public during the race, there is nothing to stop you walking, or running, along the course. I think the ethics are black and white.

See reasonable people can disagree. What if I'm offered water, say 'no thanks, I'm not part of the race" and am told "that's ok, take it anyway?" That's happened to me. What if I regularly run a course on Saturdays, and everyone once in a while find myself running along with a small 5K part of the way? That happens to me several time a year, as student groups have 5Ks most weekends during the fall. Sometimes I remember and avoid the course, sometimes I forget and find myself in the time/place of the race, sometimes I didn't realize there would be a race and it's a true accident. Am I a bandit in all of those cases? If I run and cheer for the runners at the same time, have I become a spectator or am I a bandit? I think there's a good argument to be made that my original question re: deliberately running much of the course at the time of the race is clearly in on the side of being a bandit because of knowledge and intent. I don't think that every instance of being on a race course during a race is banditry, though. For what it's worth, I'm probably going to do what one of my running partners did last year -- deliberately run part of the course (a part that we regularly run both alone and with others, by the way), both backwards and forwards in a way that will allow us to see the front runners, then stop at the end of our run and spend a good chunk of time cheering (which will put us at a very lonely stretch of road where there will be no other spectators). It's probably banditing for at least part of the run, but we've decided to call ourselves demi-semi-bandits. I don't think the ethics of this are clear cut -- I'm not profiting from a thing the race has done by running this particular stretch of road and not interfering in anyway with the race itself, but I am intentionally running on a race course during a race. I'm a pretty reasonable person, and definitely a person who thinks a lot about how I contribute to things I take part in. (And in fact, I think a lot about how laws punish folks for simply being poor, sparky. That's dinnertime/late-night-going-to-sleep conversation in my house. Without being absolutely homeless, not having a stable address to receive mail can wreak havoc in the life of someone living at margins. Not having a job that let's you take a morning off of work to take care of something in court, not having the money to pay a parking fine, all kinds of small things will snowball and land folks in jail. I have a whole lecture on this!) I don't think being a bandit is civil disobedience though. Which is too bad ... I find the absolute black-and-whiteness of much of this discussion pretty amusing, and wonder if all y'all carry this sense of moral rightness over to everything you do in your lives?