Flu shot heresy (Read 2152 times)

    Although I don't consider myself an ignorant selfish dumbass, we will not be vaccinated.  What I will say is that some people have done quite a bit of fact finding  on their own and come to their own conclusions.   It is possible for people to read and be exposed to the same information and come to different conclusions. Our pediatrician never batted an eye over our no vaccination stance along with other non-mainstream choices in our health care and parenting lifestyle.  Maybe it's my circle of friends or maybe it's just a So. CA thing but I know more people who are non-mainstream than I know who are.  Heck, my PCP  is director of a Wellness Center and the staff includes a naturopath, acupuncturist, and chiropractor. I was there the other day for a followup with my podiatrist and there was a sign in the office saying they do not provide seasonal flu or H1N1 vaccines...not sure if that has to do with supply or a choice.  Seeing 5 pages filled with insults and rants against non-vaxccinating people just seems odd to me.

     

    The beauty of the debate is that we can still debate it.   Well, at least some people like to debate it...I don't really have a burning need to debate since I am completely satisfied with my stance and have no reason to think it's my job to convince or shame/berate/ridicule someone into thinking like me.  It's something everyone should definitely research and make the best choice they can.  I can't fault  people for their informed choice. 

    Jennifer mm#1231


    A Dance with Monkeys

      Define: non-mainstream

       

      Is it still non-mainstream if everybody in your community is doing it? (This is a joke, not an insult)

       

      A have many patients who elect not to vaccinate their children.  With some vaccines, this is low risk.  With others, it is high risk.  Many "informed" parents are in fact less informed than they believe.  The other day, for example, I was speaking with a parent who did not want any vaccinations for their newborn, but when I started discussing the vaccines by name, they had not actually heard of most of them.  In every case, we discuss what they know and make sure that their knowledge is complete.  If then they still do not want to vaccinate, well, that is their choice.  I am a lot more noninterventional (non-mainstream?) than you could possibly imagine.

       

      However, research does show resurgence of many previously-nearly-eradicated diseases in communities where vaccine rates are relatively low.  Kids are getting measles again in large numbers for the first time in decades.  Polio has shown back up again.  Pertussis is endemic, and kills infants.  Dead.  So too does the HIB bacteria. Dead.  And we are seeing these diseases in such communities, when just a decade ago they were thought to be eradicated (the diseases, not the communities Wink).

       

      Actually, most of this thread is NOT full of rants and insults.  Sure, there are exceptions, but most of the thread is very level.  But then again I guess that it is possible for people to read and be exposed to the same posts and come to different conclusions (this was a joke, a light hearted comment, and not intended in any way to be an insult).

       

      Lastly, I sometimes get the feeling that many folks, like Large Richard directly admitted to doing, simply don't vaccinate for the sake of being alternative (non-mainstream?) rather than as a result of having weighed all the risks and benefits, after having familiarized themselves with all the real data, with each individual vaccine.

        Define:  informed choice.


        Feeling the growl again

           (if there were a vaccine for cancer would they nonchalantly shun that, too?). 

           

          Yes, actually, I've heard people give the rationale for not giving the cervical cancer vaccine as it may encourage their daughter to have premarital sex.

          I'm still scratching my head on that one...even if it were plausible, cancer vs. premarital sex?  

          Honestly I think there are a lot of people out there who either do not, or are not capable of, a rationale cost/benefit analysis.  Every chemical of every kind you put in your body has some sort or risk, yet drugs and vaccines are supposed to be 100% safe or people won't take them...makes no sense.  There needs to be an assessment of which is worse, the treatment or the disease/risk.

          I am curious how many people die from eating peanuts each year (they're all natural, right?) versus flu or something similar...

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           


          A Dance with Monkeys

            The hepatitis B vaccine is also an anti-cancer vaccine.  This one is frequently refused.


            Needs more cowbell!

               

              Yes, actually, I've heard people give the rationale for not giving the cervical cancer vaccine as it may encourage their daughter to have premarital sex.

              I'm still scratching my head on that one...even if it were plausible, cancer vs. premarital sex?  

              Honestly I think there are a lot of people out there who either do not, or are not capable of, a rationale cost/benefit analysis.  Every chemical of every kind you put in your body has some sort or risk, yet drugs and vaccines are supposed to be 100% safe or people won't take them...makes no sense.  There needs to be an assessment of which is worse, the treatment or the disease/risk.

              I am curious how many people die from eating peanuts each year (they're all natural, right?) versus flu or something similar...

               

              I was actually thinking about that vaccine when I posted it.  I think there are a lot of parents who are living in denial with that one.  Perhaps they never ever did anything impetuous as teenagers...weird.

              I shoot pretty things! ~

              '14 Goals:

              • 6 duathlons (1 Olympic distance)

              • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)

                My family is about as conservative (i.e., religious) as you can get, and my daughter will be getting the cervical cancer vaccine as soon as her doctor says she should.  I hope she will make wise choices, but I'm not going to condemn her if she doesn't.


                Needs more cowbell!

                  While I would never wish serious flu-related stuff on anyone...a friend of mine was rippin' on people who get flu shots and H1N1 specifically just this AM.  Her FB status from a few minutes ago was that she is sick...chills, fever, coughing, stuffed sinuses, aches.


                  Karma...it's a real bitch.

                  I shoot pretty things! ~

                  '14 Goals:

                  • 6 duathlons (1 Olympic distance)

                  • 130#s (and stay there, gotdammit!)


                  Best Present Ever

                    My family is about as conservative (i.e., religious) as you can get, and my daughter will be getting the cervical cancer vaccine as soon as her doctor says she should.  I hope she will make wise choices, but I'm not going to condemn her if she doesn't.

                     The other thing is, g*d forbid, what if a girl is assaulted?  Even if they make wise choices, there are risks that they don't choose.  Let's just hope it's not our daughters ....


                    Best Present Ever

                      .  Maybe it's my circle of friends or maybe it's just a So. CA thing but I know more people who are non-mainstream than I know who are. 

                       

                      I'm a local/organic foods, no fast food, no tv or video games, anti-logo-on clothes sort of mom.  I breastfed my kids until they were 4 years old, so that I have a 7 year stretch where I was continuously breastfeeding.  When it's reasonable, I choose watchful waiting over antibiotics.  (Ear infections get watchful waiting, my little guy's bouts of pneumonia have gotten antibx).  

                       

                      I have however lived in places where kids actually get things like polio.   I doubt many folks who choose not to vaccinate have actually seen these childhood diseases.    Of course, we may soon see more diseases, as trent says.  There are communities  in Northern CA and southern Oregon that are reaching critically low rates of vaccination. 


                      A Dance with Monkeys

                        we may soon see more diseases

                         

                        Not "may". We HAVE seen more diseases.  This is just one of many many examples.  The year before, there was a large measles outbreak in San Diego.  Just another example.


                        Imminent Catastrophe

                           What I will say is that some people have done quite a bit of fact finding  on their own and come to their own conclusions.  ... It's something everyone should definitely research and make the best choice they can.  I can't fault  people for their informed choice. 

                          Sorry but, no, it's not that simple. It's not "Beatles vs. Rolling Stones". Your "choice" can result in others being infected. And if enough of your neighbors make the same uneducated choice as you, that results in an epidemic. If enough people worldwide make the same choice as you, that results in a pandemic. 

                          This is not just an intellectual exercise. The choices you make affect everyone around you and can result in serious illness or death for others. 

                          I urge you to do more "fact finding". Thoroughly research not only the data you read, but who provided that information. Do you believe the system that has all but eradicated polio, smallpox, pertussis, diphtheria, measles, and the like (at least until the recent anti-vaccination hysteria, when some of these have resurged), or do you believe celebrities and websites? 

                          Science-based medicine has a pretty good track record against infectious disease. When your naturopath, acupuncturist, and chiropractor belittle that, I urge you to ask them about their track record against infectious disease. BTW Influenza is an infectious disease. 

                          "Able to function despite imminent catastrophe"

                           "To obtain the air that angels breathe you must come to Tahoe"--Mark Twain

                          "The most common question from potential entrants is 'I do not know if I can do this' to which I usually answer, 'that's the whole point'.--Paul Charteris, Tarawera Ultramarathon RD.

                           

                          √ Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 20/21 July 2013

                          Boston Marathon 21 April 2014

                          Tahoe Rim Trail 100M 19/20 July 2014

                            +1


                            I've got a fever...


                               

                              However, research does show resurgence of many previously-nearly-eradicated diseases in communities where vaccine rates are relatively low.  Kids are getting measles again in large numbers for the first time in decades.  Polio has shown back up again.  Pertussis is endemic, and kills infants.  Dead.  So too does the HIB bacteria. Dead.  And we are seeing these diseases in such communities, when just a decade ago they were thought to be eradicated (the diseases, not the communities Wink).


                               This is the price we all end up paying when we ignore the amazing progress that has been made in medicine over the 100 years.  I, for one, have no desire to return to the sub-50 life expectancies of the 19th century.  The good old days weren't all that good, and tomorrow's not as bad as it seems.

                              On your deathbed, you won't wish that you'd spent more time at the office.  But you will wish that you'd spent more time running.  Because if you had, you wouldn't be on your deathbed.

                                Quite a few of my ancestors in West Texas died of diphtheria in the late 1800s.  We have a lot of old family letters, and they are heartbreaking to read.  Do you want to go back to that?  I think it's OK to "rant againt non-vaccinating people."  Not vaccinating yourself or your children IS ignorant.