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Do Runners need to be Strong? (Read 381 times)

sport jester


Biomimeticist

    you forgot two blah's......

     

    Let alone forgetting to disprove it.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18550953

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8857704

    Experts said the world is flat

    Experts said that man would never fly

    Experts said we'd never go to the moon

     

    Name me one of those "experts"...

     

    History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

    GC100k


      1. Weight training is designed to increase your physical size and weight, not improve strength.
      2. It cannot increase the amount of power by which you can generate higher speed.
      3. Unfortunately science says that biological reality increases energy consumption per step.

      4. Strength training will improve your running speed abilities, however in no way will it make you a better runner.

      1. complete bullshit nonsense

      2. complete bullshit nonsense

      3. what is the measure of "biological reality" and how can I decrease mine?

      4. wait.  It will improve my running speed (2 isn't true)?  I'll take that over being a better but slower runner.

       

      Welcome back SJ, but you're making even less sense than normal.

      GC100k


        you forgot two blah's......

         

        Let alone forgetting to disprove it.

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18550953

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8857704

         

        From a review linked in the sidebar to the above:

         

        "all five studies measured 4.6% improved running economy (RE; range = 3-8.1%). After critically reviewing the literature for the impact of CT (concurrent resistance and endurance training) on high-level runners, we conclude that resistance training likely has a positive effect on endurance running performance or RE."

         

         

        Not sure the linked one short-term study of female 3000 runners is definitive, but that article showed that the weight-lifting group increased strength and did not increase size which is completely contrary to your claim that weightlifting only increases size and does not increase strength.

         

         

        The other linked abstract is all speculation and doesn't mention weight training, perhaps the article has data, but if you like that article do you agree with one of the central points in the abstract?:

         

        "It appears that through training, individuals are able to integrate and accommodate their own unique combination of dimensions and mechanical characteristics so that they arrive at a running motion which is most economical for them."

         

        That is in complete contrast to your central thesis in every one of your posts that people run inefficiently unless you train them.

        pedaling fool


           

           

          That's fine, but being a strong runner and actually being and feeling strong seem to be different. If a person can run 26 miles but can't even do a pull up or push up would they be considered all around strong? What do you all think?

           

          They are different. I'm a good runner, but an excellent cyclist. Only because I've been cycling for over 25 years. You want to be a strong runner, you got to put in the miles, just like I did on the bike. I've also been working out with weights for years, probably about 15. And I think it has improved my cycling somewhat (in certain areas), but it doesn't make me the cyclist I am today, only thousands and thousands of miles have done that and I think it's the same with running.

           

          However, what weighlifting has done for me is made my whole body strong, the body is your armor and if you don't work it, it weakens overtime. This is easy to overlook when you're young/middle age, but as you age your body will become decrepit, just a fact of life. Look aroud you at the problem old people have at simply walking aroud, that's not a cardio issue, much of that is from their frame falling apart.

           

          It (strenght training) also helps if you ever suffer from a serious accident, check out this excerpt and if you get time read the whole article, pretty interesting.   http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/everything-you-know-about-fitness-is-a-lie-20120504

           

          Excerpt:

           

           

          Muscle withers away if you're not constantly building it, and muscle withers faster as a man ages. Fading muscle mass gives way to fat gain, stiff joints, stumbling-old-man balance, and a serious drop-off in weekend fun, not to mention self-esteem. But if you fight back right, it can all go the other way. And this means getting strong. The bottom line is that not only can lifting weights do as much for your heart health as cardio workouts, but it also provides you with a lean-muscle coat of armor against life's inevitable blows – the way it did for my own father, who broke his back in a climbing accident at age 69, spent months in bed, and recovered strong only because he'd been lifting for 35 years."



          Read more: http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/everything-you-know-about-fitness-is-a-lie-20120504#ixzz2mtTd6mcI
          Follow us: @mensjournal on Twitter | MensJournal on Facebook

             

            It (strenght training) also helps if you ever suffer from a serious accident, check out this excerpt and if you get time read the whole article, pretty interesting.   http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/everything-you-know-about-fitness-is-a-lie-20120504

             

             

            He lost me with this one: "Cardio machines are innocent enough, as they won't actually make you any less fit, but maintaining cardiovascular fitness doesn't really take much more than breathing uncomfortably hard for about 20 minutes, three times a week."


            Latent Runner

              Hmmm, let's see, inhale and exhale uncomfortably hard for 20 minutes, pass out from hyperventilating, run a sub-two-hour marathon.  If it were only that easy.  Joking

               

              Yeah, a pretty lame statement if I ever saw one.

              Fat old man PRs:

              • 1-mile (point to point, gravity assist): 5:50
              • 2-mile: 13:49
              • 5K (gravity assist last mile): 21:31
              • 5-Mile: 37:24
              • 10K (first 10K of my Half Marathon): 48:16
              • 10-Mile (first 10 miles of my Half Marathon): 1:17:40
              • Half Marathon: 1:42:13
              sport jester


              Biomimeticist

                2. It cannot increase the amount of power by which you can generate higher speed.

                4. Strength training will improve your running speed abilities, however in no way will it make you a better runner.

                1. complete bullshit nonsense

                2. complete bullshit nonsense

                3. what is the measure of "biological reality" and how can I decrease mine?

                4. wait.  It will improve my running speed (2 isn't true)?  I'll take that over being a better but slower runner.

                 

                Welcome back SJ, but you're making even less sense than normal.

                1: Weight training is designed to impact fast twitch muscle fiber, completely ignoring any slow twitch application to lifting weights. All weight training does is increase the strength of the "first gear" of your speed capabilities by increasing their size as quickly as possible which is the con of the practice.

                 

                2: All power application is limited by your own natural running mechanics. Strength training in no way alters how you physically put one foot in front of the other with greater efficiency.

                 

                3: How do you run faster without altering running mechanics? The only means possible is to push yourself up higher in vertical lift per step to generate a longer stride (which is the only economical improvement measurable). However it requires greater energy consumption to do so. Not to mention the increased landing impact forces your body has to absorb with that longer stride and higher vertical displacement.

                 

                Running faster by strength training is well possible, but in no way will it decrease the energy expenditure to do so, which is what defines "improved running economy"....

                 

                NOTE TO PRINCESS:

                REREAD THE CONCLUSION "  a nonsignificant increase in improvement for 3-km times was evident", "There were no significant differences between the two groups for VO2peak, running economy, body composition, or girth measurements."

                 

                Doesn't sound like much of a return for the time invested in being better at a squat lift in my book, especially when altering running mechanics can increase speed by 20% in far less time.

                Experts said the world is flat

                Experts said that man would never fly

                Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                 

                Name me one of those "experts"...

                 

                History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                GC100k



                  NOTE TO PRINCESS:

                  REREAD THE CONCLUSION "  a nonsignificant increase in improvement for 3-km times was evident", "There were no significant differences between the two groups for VO2peak, running economy, body composition, or girth measurements."

                   

                  Doesn't sound like much of a return for the time invested in being better at a squat lift in my book, especially when altering running mechanics can increase speed by 20% in far less time.

                   

                  That was one study of females running 3k.  As I said, the review linked to that study showed that most studies found strength training helps distance runners, including their running economy.  So the authors of all the studies in the review are fabricating data?.  And again, the 3k study found that the ladies increased strength without increasing size, which are both contrary to what you claimed.

                   

                  It's good that you've backed off your ridiculous first assertion and are now willing to conceded that strength training can help at least fast twitch running and have reversed yourself on your initial claim that strength training cannot make you faster.

                   

                  I'm not sure why you linked that other paper that bluntly refutes your efficiency claims if you're going to continue with the irrelevant efficiency fantasies.  There have been thousands of running studies done in the 30+ years you claim to have been teaching your methods and millions of runners have been trying to improve their times yet there is not one, nada, zilch bit of evidence that someone can improve their speed by 20% by application of your magic method that you never quite get around to explaining.

                   

                  Stick with your magic efficiency fantasies and leave the strength training discussion to people who at least sorta know what they're talking about.

                  pedaling fool


                     

                    He lost me with this one: "Cardio machines are innocent enough, as they won't actually make you any less fit, but maintaining cardiovascular fitness doesn't really take much more than breathing uncomfortably hard for about 20 minutes, three times a week."

                    That's a fair criticism of the article and I very much disagree with that statement. I know from all my years of cycling that cardio fitness involves much more than "...breathing uncomfotably hard for about 20 minutes, three times a week".

                     

                    However, to be fair, I've noticed when I read an article about a given activity, i.e. cycling, running, hiking, weightlifting, crossfit..., they are mostly written by people that are very biased towards that activity, so much so that when they talk about crosstraining they very much show their lack of knowledge in that area and sometimes absolute disdain (as in your example above).

                     

                    Crossfit is a very good example of that in how they make fun of people that participate in only one execise, i.e. running or cycling and let everything else fall apart. I only agree with that to a point. I've also read running articles and books (good ones) that were a little dismissive of weightlifing.

                    clateboulder


                      check out this excerpt and if you get time read the whole article, pretty interesting.http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/everything-you-know-about-fitness-is-a-lie-20120504

                       

                       

                      Excerpt:

                       

                      Muscle withers away if you're not constantly building it, and muscle withers faster as a man ages. Fading muscle mass gives way to fat gain, stiff joints, stumbling-old-man balance, and a serious drop-off in weekend fun, not to mention self-esteem.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      Great article. Thanks for sharing.

                      sport jester


                      Biomimeticist

                         That was one study of females running 3k. 

                        And you think you're biologically any different?

                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20885197

                         

                        The question will always stand what parameters of running economy does strength training effect? How does it change the way you run?

                        The answer is simple: it doesn't.

                         

                        And since we're a quad focused runner, that strength training only increases the friction of the patella in the femoral groove is why I can easily assert doing squats is of no benefit to any serious runner.

                         

                        Far more important than muscle strength, is what sequence they fire. And more efficient power application has a much higher level of impact to improve running speed than weight lifting alone could ever hope to impact

                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20093666

                        Experts said the world is flat

                        Experts said that man would never fly

                        Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                         

                        Name me one of those "experts"...

                         

                        History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                        sport jester


                        Biomimeticist

                          Experts said the world is flat

                          Experts said that man would never fly

                          Experts said we'd never go to the moon

                           

                          Name me one of those "experts"...

                           

                          History never remembers the name of experts; just the innovators who had the guts to challenge and prove the "experts" wrong

                          clateboulder


                            And you think you're biologically any different?

                            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20885197

                             

                            The question will always stand what parameters of running economy does strength training effect? How does it change the way you run?

                            The answer is simple: it doesn't.

                             

                            And since we're a quad focused runner, that strength training only increases the friction of the patella in the femoral groove is why I can easily assert doing squats is of no benefit to any serious runner.

                             

                            Far more important than muscle strength, is what sequence they fire. And more efficient power application has a much higher level of impact to improve running speed than weight lifting alone could ever hope to impact

                            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20093666

                            interesting. Thanks!


                            Gang Name "Pound Cake"

                              Two comments:

                               

                              1) Stop feeding the troll Smile

                               

                              2) I agree that Jay Johnson's vimeo videos for strength seem to be good ones. I'm going to start doing a medicine ball strength routine myself in addition to planks, donkey kicks, etc.

                              - Scott

                              2014 Goals: First Marathon - BQ2016 <3:40 (3:25:18) - 1/2M <1:45 - 5K <22:00

                              2014 Marathons: 05/04 Flying Pig (3:49:02) - 09/20 Air Force (BQ 3:25:18) - 11/01 Indianapolis Monumental

                                For some reason I hadn't clicked into this topic since it started. What a train wreck. I've been in non-sj bliss for a while and didn't realize you guys have been over here keeping him fed.

                                 

                                As for my opinion on the topic ... Yes, runners need to be strong. Mentally Strong.

                                 

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