Goal of sub 18:36 minute(6 minute mile average) and sub 18:00 5k (Read 3422 times)

1. Weekly mileage: Currently about 95-105/week, except on race weeks where I cut back.
2. Hard workouts per week: 1 or 2. Some weeks I'll include some track intervals, often fartlek style work where I run 1/2 a lap at an easy pace and 1/2 a lap at 5K pace. Occasionally, I'll substitute it a run with 30-45 minutes @ 15K-HM pace. But lately my standard "tough workout" every week is the final hour of my weekend LR, where I run it at PMP + 5%. But as you see, I do very little in terms of "faster running," just enough at times to make sure my leg turnover still exists.
3. Long run: anywhere from 18 miles (on the short end) to 3 hours. First two hours are at AHR 140-145, and the remainder is as I explained in point #2.
4. Easy pace: 8:00-8:30, for runs at AHR 135-145. I'm not afraid to keep the AHR below 140 if I feel I need it. 
5. Challenges: Heat. Humidity. I'm still a bit on the heavier side for a long-distance runner, so both of these really get to me. Fortunately it has been a cool spring in Chicago, but I know that is going to chance eventually.
6. Target: To keep healthy. Last fall and winter I was constantly coming down with colds or the flu, so I need to make sure that my immune system remains strong.
7. Where you at?!: In getting really close to sub 18 (with my 18:11 PR), but time might be running out before it gets too warm. I may have to postpone the quest for sub 18 until after I'm done with the fall marathon.

Interesting that both Rodeido and dcv are using marathon training to improve 5K race.  I'm gonaa try the opposite.  I've only marathon trained for years.  No intervals or Vo2max or the like.  So, my feeling is that I've got a great base of endurance but little speed.  Ever see the Daniel's training pyramid?  I'm feeling like I've never moved beyond the Tempo point in the pyramid and my times bear that out.  My short distance race times don't approach what the calculators predict based on my longer distance race times.  Hence a shift in quality day focus to Vo2max.  Anyone have any comments?

Ken - my last marathon training cycle was the first where i did anything above daniels' tempo point too.  prior to that i was nursing achilles issues and the fast stuff tore it up.  so i focused on running a lot of miles (100+) - result was a 3:06 and i finished feeling great, with energy to spare.  recovery was pretty much instantaneous.

this time i was coming back from another injury and knew i didnt have the time to build the mileage and get thru on endurance, so i went with a lower mileage (peaked at 70) plan with a lot more speedwork (800s, 1200s). the result was a 3:03 but i was trashed at the end and it's taken me 2 weeks to get over it.   the positive side effect of this cycle was that my 5k, 10k and half times all came down significantly.

now it could be that cycle B was better simply because it followed cycle A, so it's hard to say whether it was better or not, but i have to figure that if all other things are equal, being able to run a 5k at 6:00 (vs 6:15) pace, has to make running a marathon at 6:52 pace that much easier.

Next (cycle C) will be a combination of both (high mileage and a fair amount speedwork) which will hopefully be enough to get me a 2-something in chicago.  

 Alan - thanks for that detailed response, very helpful.  I guess cycle C is the Holy Grail, eh?  I'll probably end up giving up on my 3000mile goal for the year (which was pretty much out the window when I got injured in Jan) and try to keep mileage in the 60-80mpw range from now till Fall marathon season.  For the next several weeks I'll try to fold in the VO2Max workouts instead of so many tempo-type runs.  I also believe that 6:40 tempo intervals or tempo runs were too slow for me to get maximal benefit.  I think they should have been run at 6:30.

I just found that running 200's, 400's and 800's at 5:20 pace trashed my legs for at least 2 days afterwards.

I've gotten into a bad habit of breaking out VDOT tables lately, but they can be instructive.  Using your recent 38:49 10k PR, you get:

 I was running R-paced stuff. So its the  next layer down.... I went off of a 54 VDOT which said 1:21 for 400m, 40 sec for 200m and 2:45 for 800m. I was right around there for those +/- a second... Something like 10x400m R with 400m jog in between each... The interval stuff would be something like 4-5x1000m with 500m J in between each with the 1000's in 3:41 which I did one day...

I've got that website on my bookmarks... My marathon time, 4 mile time and 10k time are all around VDOT 54.

 

 

I've gotten into a bad habit of breaking out VDOT tables lately, but they can be instructive.  Using your recent 38:49 10k PR, you get:

Type		mile	1600m	1200m	1000m	800m	400m	200m
Easy/Long	E/L	8:03	8:00		5:00		2:00
Marathon	M	6:50	6:48		4:15		1:42
Threshold	T	6:27	6:25		4:01		1:36
Interval	I	5:56	5:54	4:26	3:41	2:57	1:29
Rep	R					2:45	1:22	40

 

Looks to me like you were doing your interval work too hard. Running above 100% VO2max doesn't get you any further aerobic benefit compared to running at 100%, and it trashes your legs, as you said.

As I said earlier, I was intending to not race tonight in order to not risk injury at this point. As part of this effort I went for a real easy 5 mile run this morning to see how things were feeling. My knee felt fine but not 100% normal. I was still intending to run ~19ish and ease up on the downhill sections. I wore Speedstars for a change rather than flats for a bit of extra cushioning.

Come race time I did my usual 2 mile warmup plus some strides and felt good but I lined up a bit further back than normal. Very leisurely start for me but as space opened up I moved up from what must have been about 30th place to about 10th over the first half mile or so. Felt pretty easy. As we went up the hill I continued to pick people off. Having fun now. Hit the first mile in 6:09. Wow. It didn't feel that fast. Still I was intending to push on the uphill and ease up on the downhill so I kept the pace up until the turnaround. At the turnaround I caught the first place woman and hung with her for most of the way back. 6.12 for the second mile. The pace didn't feel too bad and I felt I was holding a little back. I pulled away a little in the final stretch to finish in 5th, a fairly typical place for me, and 18:33 overall, 6:12  for the last 1.1 and a 5:59 pace. The three people in front of me finished in 17:48, 17:53 and 17:56. I hope they are there next week because that's what I need to chase. Running 18:33 and having it not feel like 100% effort was actually a good confidence boost for me. On the other hand if I wake up tomorrow and my knee is sore I'm going to be cursing my stupidity.

Food was tacos, ice cream was good (local company McConnells donates the ice cream), beer was excellent (red nectar), coffee was welcome and I won an 'Old Guys Rule' t-shirt in the raffle. Good times.

John

18:33 holding back? Very nice John. Make sure to bring the “old guys rule” shirt next week – you will definitely be on the podium!

So I ran some shorter distance intervals yesterday at 10K pace (with a 2.5/3.5 warm-up and cool down). Even though I waited until 6:45pm to do them, the heat/humidity was amazing. I felt I was growing stronger on the track, but what a slog fest on the way home! With this weather, my “quality” days look more like a “Survivor” audition. Ugh.

John- good job in your race!

All - interesting reading on the responses in training details.  I am not sure how some of you guys can train for a marathon!  There's no way I have time for 70, 80, 90 MPW.

NACN- what do you consider heavy for a long distance runner?  I'm in the low 190s.

Looks like I'll get in about 32 miles this week, that's with running all 7 days and having 2 hockey games (I can only run maybe 4 miles at most on a game day).  Season ends next week, I am really hoping to get to 40 mile weeks soon.  But based on feedback here I should watch my pace a little bit and watch out for fatigue.  I have that tantalizing 3 month period in college when I was consistently over 60 miles per week and easily in the best shape of my life (PR'd in the 3000m and 10K and 1 second off my mile PR but running it indoors...tore my hammy before I could race a 5K).  I'd love to see if I could do that again.