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Hal Higdon? (Read 563 times)
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esq.
posted: 7/6/2007 at 5:45 PM
I'm running Richmond in the fall (November 10). This will be my third marathon (I did Baltimore in 2005 and Marine Corps in 2006, times 4:45 and 4:02, respectively).

I am pretty confident I will break the 4 hour barrier (I would have at MCM, had I not gone out too fast and too hard), but I would really like to finish somewhere between 3:50 and 3:55.

Anyhow, I like schedules that are already set up for me. I've heard good things about Hal Higdon's programs, so I decided to check them out --- and decided on the Intermediate II http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00intermediate.htm schedule.

It looks like a good one, but doesn't include any tempo runs or speedwork. Do I just add these in as I see fit and keep the mileage the same? Do I really need to DO speedwork?

All advice appreciated Smile Thanks!
2009: BQ?
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posted: 7/6/2007 at 5:52 PM
I have used Higdon's Int. 1 and Int 2 program, as well as Pfitzinger's 55 MPW program. I usually end up adding mileage to all 3 of them. I tend to keep all long runs on the schedule unless I add a mile or two here and there- but then I adjust the weekday mileage to what I want out of the program.

Should you do speed work? Depends on what your goal is. If is to break 4 hrs, you can probably do that with out speed work. If you want to run something a good bit faster, then add a day of speed work. For me, the way to run a faster marathon is #1- increase my mileage, then #2- add speed work.

Have you looked at Higdon's Adv. 1 program? It has speed work on one day of each week. You can adjust the miles to get the amount of miles you want.
http://distance-runner.blogspot.com
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Barefoot and happy
posted: 7/7/2007 at 12:07 AM
I bet you can go sub four hours without any speedwork at all.
Curious about running barefoot? Visit the new barefoot running group.
MandyS
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posted: 7/7/2007 at 12:13 AM
OH went sub 3 last year without any speedwork. He did lots of slow (for him!) miles and a fair amount of marathon pace running.
2008 targets: 5k - 21mins (22.29 21.55), 10k - 45mins (49.38 48.12 47.19), HM - 1hr45 (1.50.08 1.44.10 1.40.41), M - 4 hours (3.46.41)
"It is not the mountain we conquer, but ourselves" - Sir Edmund Hillary
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Sup!
posted: 7/7/2007 at 6:25 AM
modified: 7/7/2007 at 6:28 AM
i love that name ... Hal Higdon...sounds like a porn star.. Big grin

people seems to really dig pfitz plans...i'm hoping to break four this year as well...i might use pfitz 55 plan...

a friend of mine ran 3:25 without speedwork, few months later on the next marathon training she did speedwork and ran 3:11...so it seems to work for some people..
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posted: 7/8/2007 at 1:51 AM
actually, he does have tempo work...maybe even speed work if you look at the individual days. If you click on the week he has different instructions for each day of that particular training week. I followed his Int I for my first marathon and Int II for the one I just did in June. I just follow the distance and then I run however I feel. I did not do speed work, per se. I did add mileage in, here and there.
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my homeground
posted: 7/8/2007 at 4:14 PM
modified: 7/8/2007 at 4:21 PM
I think speedwork is important for a sub 4 marathon time. I went to my run clinc today at the track field with the ekiden coach a former pro 10,000m/marathon runner. We did 200m x 20, one fast 4:25 km/pace (I was in the slow bunch or runners) then one slow recovery lap. The coach said that speedwork teaches you good form. It is best to do it once a week. The longer you can maintain good form and keep your feet moving, the better your speed and race time. Speedwork strengthens your leg muscles using them to near peak max. The other reason to do speedwork is to raise your max heart rate to 90%. To do a wide range of heart rate training from 50% to 90% improves your overall endurance. I think that you are fully capable of breaking 4:00, Trishie. My other advice is to do one 30k - 32k run per month. I haven't been doing my LSD lately, but will start again soon. I love your skirt and the sexy legs from all that running!
Tokyo Marathon - the best race EVER!
Scout7
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CPT Curmudgeon
posted: 7/9/2007 at 3:12 PM
I did the Int II last year for Baltimore (my first marathon). I ran sub 3:30, and did no speed work.
Amat victoria curam.

Sine labore nihil.

Dulcius ex asperis.
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Frustrating Project
posted: 7/9/2007 at 3:24 PM
modified: 7/9/2007 at 3:33 PM
Speedwork or not, you definitely need to include some goal-pace running in your long runs. 3:50 marathon is 8:47/mile pace. So I think it would be wise to run parts of your long run at this pace. He's an excerpt from a book I have called Great Workout for Popular Races by Dr. Owen Anderson. I know mikeymike's not a fan of this guy, but I think he will agree with me on this bit: (a longer excerpt from the same book can be found here)

While it is important to
gradually work up to a 20- to 22-mile training run in
preparation for a marathon, it is not necessary to turn your
legs into chalk dust during training...It is far better to reserve the long run for
every other weekend, or even every third weekend, and to
carry out high-quality efforts on days which used to be
designated for the long slogs.

...
Many marathon trainees believe that 18- to 20-
mile long runs prepare their bodies to handle the rigors of
a full marathon, forgetting that all they have really learned
to do is run a partial marathon at slower-than-goal pace.
To make your long training runs (the ones you carry out
every other week or every third week during your training)
relevant to the race, it is important to make such efforts
race-specific. This simply means including a significant
chunk of miles at goal marathon pace within the
overall run.
You can be very progressive in this regard: If
your current long run is six miles, for example, you can
include three miles at goal marathon tempo (warm up with
two easy miles, cruise for three miles at goal speed, and
then cool down with one light mile). Over time, you can
increase the length of the long run by a mile or two per
workout, until you reach 22 miles – with about 10 of those
miles at goal marathon speed.

...
It makes sense, in fact, to complete one race simulator
about four to five weeks before your marathon date.

To complete the simulator, simply run 10 miles fairly easily,
at a pace about 45 seconds per mile slower than goal
marathon tempo, and then – without stopping – click off
10 more miles at goal marathon speed, before cooling
down with two miles at 45 seconds off marathon pace.

This great workout, which involves running close to half a
marathon at goal race velocity while already tired, is a diagnostic
one; it will reveal whether your chosen goal is
too lofty or too humble. It is also great preparation for the
marathon itself, since it forces you to reel off 10 goalspeed
miles when your leg muscles are already in a fatigued
state. Finally, the simulator improves confidence
and efficiency at hoped-for marathon intensity. Don’t forget,
however, that you must build up gradually to simulator
status, starting with about six total miles (with three at
goal pace). Bear in mind, too, that you will need ample
recovery after the simulator, completing only light training
during the following week and tapering your training
steadily and progressively between the date of the simulator
and your big meeting with “m.” As mentioned, the
simulator should be completed four to five weeks before
your marathon; if you squeeze the two together, you won’t
be fully recovered on race day, and you will not be able to
achieve your best-possible performance.



I guess the upshot is that you probably don't need to do a lot of speedwork for sub-4, but I think the idea of including some goal-pace running in your long runs is a sound one.
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20
25k: 1:35:59

21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00

What are you doing?

"Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth."
Steve Allen
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posted: 7/9/2007 at 3:41 PM
Jeff, I don't disagree with anything in that particular post.

But to me, any statement such as, to run an X:XX marathon you need to do speedwork, or you need to do xyz workout, is just not true. The time you are aiming for is not important at all in and of itself. It's a matter of how close to your own genetic potential you are trying to get. A lot of people could run sub 4 hours off of jogging 30 miles a week and no speedwork. Others might need to run 75 miles a week and 2 big workouts.

To answer Trishie's original question, I don't think you need to worry too much about speedwork or tempos. If you feel good, a tempo run now and then is a good thing, but will not make or break you in going for 3:50-3:55. Based on your previous results and trajectory, I'd say if you keep your mileage about where it's been or slightly higher, you'll break break 3:55 in your next marathon. The marathon is more about lifetime base.
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Frustrating Project
posted: 7/9/2007 at 3:47 PM
Quote from mikeymike on 7/9/2007 at 3:41 PM:
Jeff, I don't disagree with anything in that particular post.

But to me, any statement such as, to run an X:XX marathon you need to do speedwork, or you need to do xyz workout, is just not true.

Yeah, I'm with you there.

MM, What is your thought on goal-pace running as part of the long run (as opposed to it being long slow distance)?
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20
25k: 1:35:59

21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00

What are you doing?

"Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth."
Steve Allen
Scout7
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CPT Curmudgeon
posted: 7/9/2007 at 3:51 PM
OK, minor point of contention here....

It's not supposed to be "Long Slow Distance". It's "Long STEADY Distance". I know, it's a seemingly minor point, but I think the implication of it is much greater.

As to the idea of incorporating goal pace..... Some (including Pfitzinger) call that a "tempo run". Others call it an AT run. Either way, it can be useful, but not entirely required.
Amat victoria curam.

Sine labore nihil.

Dulcius ex asperis.
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posted: 7/9/2007 at 4:25 PM
Actually Pfitz defines long runs that incorporate goal pace as Marathon Pace runs which are separate from Tempo Runs. Pfitz only has 2 of these scheduled into his 18/55 plan. Higdon, on the other hand, puts a lot more pace runs in (on Saturday - pre long run) - but they are shorter. For example, on Int II - Higdon has 11 of these in an 18 week plan.
Your monkey gives me the creeps. - andahuff

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Frustrating Project
posted: 7/9/2007 at 4:34 PM
modified: 7/9/2007 at 4:37 PM
Quote from Scout7 on 7/9/2007 at 3:51 PM:
It's not supposed to be "Long Slow Distance". It's "Long STEADY Distance". I know, it's a seemingly minor point, but I think the implication of it is much greater.

Thanks for the reminder. I've made a conscious decision to not say "long slow distance" the last few years, but sometimes it slips out.

I think that some goal pace running needs to be a part of any training program at any distance; otherwise, you won't know what your goal pace feels like on race day. And if you're goal pace is faster than you ever train, you've little chance of sustaining that pace for the whole race. *descends from soapbox after depositing $0.02* Smile
20th Century: 800m: 2:04 |1600m: 4:37 |3200m: 10:06 |5k: 16:23 |10k: 35:38 |15k: 54:20
25k: 1:35:59

21st Century: 5k: 19:42 |10k: 43:00

What are you doing?

"Do not allow children to mix drinks. It is unseemly, and they use too much vermouth."
Steve Allen
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esq.
posted: 7/9/2007 at 4:39 PM
Thanks, everyone.

Lots of good advice.

I'm starting to panic because my training started, technically, on Sunday ... and I did not get out of bed to get in 10 miles.

The Bar Exam studying is draining me of any and all energy ... someone please just tell me that I'll be okay Confused
2009: BQ?
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